Tim and JVL react to Mehdi Hasan's appearance on Jubilee, where he takes on 20 far-right conservatives in a brutal, revealing debate. From open fascist admissions to jaw-dropping constitutional takes, Tim and JVL break down what this says about the next generation of conservatives.
As always: Watch, listen, and leave a comment. Bulwark+ Takes is home to short videos, livestreams, and event archives exclusively for Bulwark+ members.
For ad-free, audio editions of Bulwark+ Takes, add your private feed to your podcast player of choice, here.
Bulwark Takes are also available (ad supported) on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
I would like to call out Tim and JVL for suggesting that these kids are not neurotypical. They very well could be, but please don't suggest that they are the way they are because they are neurodivergent. I am neurodivergent, and I very much disagree with these kids' philosophy. Please do not try to place the "Crazy Conservative" hat on all neurodivergent people. A lot of us are nowhere near the world-view expressed by these young people. Thank you!
Missed a chance w Neil de Grasse Tyson to ask that bro is Melania Trump was a US citizen
Just a thought--These people have always been there. There's no real change in their disposition. What's changed is the permission structure. I'm a nearly lifelong white southerner (grew up under Jim Crow) and historian of the American South, and white supremacists and neoconfederates never went away. There's a long tradition of reactionary intellectualism in the South, and I've belonged to societies in which they felt safe to voice their opinions, but while the rest of us would treat them with courtesy, they've always been marginalized. Now they feel that they have power because they think they have Trump or the GOP on their side. They don't care about persuading people, because they think they can bully them. That could get worse--much worse--but it could well reverse as well. Change the permission structure, and it won't change them, but they'll go back in their holes.
just watched the full video, think I discovered the quickest route to pickling your liver-- take a shot every time "Connor" adds a "quite frankly" to one of his statements. bonus if he uses it incorrectly.
Quite frankly, that first young fellow needs a holiday in Cambodia, as my generation were wont to say.
as soon as you start reading, and quoting, Nazi philosophy etc, you're in it. What follows is YOUR fault. You can't punch yourself in the face until you're bloody, and then blame the curious crowd gathered around you.
It is so difficult for me to not get personal with the doughy, arrogant, bloated Charlie-Kirk-looking, tittering, jiggling, attention-seeking, impotent, ignorant, anonymous incel in this video, but I won’t. That would be unkind.
Also, Tim, yes the differences among the peoples of America is just a cultural construct. But the culture has changed drastically for young, white men, and not all Americans are okay with such change. For the 14th time, please read up an political psychologist Karen Stenner who studies the authoritarian disposition (https://hopenothate.org.uk/2020/11/01/authoritarianism/), and INVITE HER TO YOUR PODCAST.
I disagree with JVL that it's not about economics. The post-industrial economy has been very bad for young men without college degrees. Read Stenner and she will explain to you that it is about "normative threat."
Thank you, Tim for moving to "what can be done about it?" I've long been frustrated with The Bulwark for informing me profoundly about the MAGA corruption of American souls, but never addressing what is to be done about it. You know, strategy for moving forward.
As a lifelong lib, I completely agree some it is a backlash to the Progressive Left's tactics. Sarah McBride, the first openly transgendered member of Congress, characterizes that as "demand of strict adherence to specific language and policies, potentially creating an environment where individuals feel compelled to adopt a particular rhetorical style or risk being labeled negatively . . . (it creates) a 'binary all-on or all-off option' for people, where there's little room for error in language (leading) to potential allies choosing to disengage rather than risk missteps.
As to what could help, McBride's answer is "a politics of 'grace,' which allows for open conversations and acknowledges the complexities and nuances of both policy and political discourse. She believes that prioritizing a more compassionate and understanding approach can be more effective in winning hearts and minds, combating misinformation, and ultimately achieving positive change" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlbNFsAGFRc).
You two are one version or another of Catholic. "Grace" should not be a foreign concept to you, yes?
I sure wish you would have McBride on to answer your legitimate and honestly inquiring question of what could help.
this is just awful. Mehti is wonderful and I hope he comes on the pod to discuss his experience.
These young conservatives are the dark side of social media.
It's pointless to argue with ideologues. Ideologues have a vision, which doubles as an identity. They endorse premises which may not even be falsifiable.
They're often in love with abstractions and abstracted logic, frequently underpinned by wishful thinking.
You might dissuade an ideologue by cataloging the predictable adverse consequences of his vision, but it's typically impractical to do so until after the fact.
Moreover, ideologies give aggrieved or despondent people hope. Try telling them their hopes are bound to be dashed.
Ideologies, like religions, make the world seem comprehensible and tolerable. They bring a kind of joy to the joyless. It's not surprising that some people look for joy in all the wrong places.
P. S. That applies to Hasan too, who recycled the same progressive garbage about Palestinian Arabs being an oppressed indigenous people, and naturally ignored both the Jews' 3500 year old claim to the land and their right under international law to the entire territory of the former British Mandate (the Arabs having warred against Partition in 1947 to the derogation of any claim they might have had).
Are these people supposed to be "smart" maga?
Seems the proud “fascist” lost his job as a result of the clip he himself put out. Although idk…I kinda call BS on the whole thing…seems like a scam to get free money to me. 🤷♀️
https://l.smartnews.com/p-5RywyRaw/YmJQO7
Obv all race is, at the root, a social construct. Not to be a downer, but it seems like the way to maintain white supremacy is the same way its always worked: Italians and the Irish were made white, and I suspect that if you're a light-skinned Latino or Asian person, you'll be added to "whiteness". So like if you're Han, or you're a member of (some) Venezuelans, or (some) Chileans -prob become White. If you're Thai or, idk, a darker-skinned person from Latin or South America -SOL. Idk, just spitballing..
I came across the Jubilee video in a comment on a Bulwark piece on Sunday, having never heard of it before. I suffered through the entire video, and wow. I am deeply concerned about these young adults who grew up with tr*mp in politics. I know some of these types. Parents were reliably Republican and Fox watchers, now all are (fake) Christian nationalists. I think they are now who they always were, it is just (supposedly) acceptable now. This 30 minute video was perfect for more to see what is happening, so thank you Tim and JVL for doing this.
Talk about a lack of imagination and devoid of any historical context. To imagine any absolute power leader be in power for life is ignorance plain and simple. They're so blinded by their ideology that they can not envision it ending badly, even for them. And their ignorance of history keeps them from learning from the mistakes of the past. How many of these boobs went to private vs. public school? Right-wing protestants don't even consider Catholics Christian. I doubt they even know that. I'm going to get me some popcorn.
Revoking citizenship reminds me of Max Headroom.
just how representative are these facists?
Good question. Answer, anyone?
That's the question, isn't it?
Have you heard the phrase "Trump tells it like it is"?
Trump says, out loud, what his supporters have always believed, but never felt comfortable to say out loud. That's why they love Trump so, because he gave them license to be as openly cruel as they have always been.
If we could put "moderate conservatives" on a polygraph, and see what they agree with and disagree with, I'm pretty sure that most would go pretty far down this path.
i hate how cogent this reply was
I’ve been accused of many things on the internet, called many horrible names, but I have never been called “cogent”.
How dare you, Sir!
I think y'all are a little out of touch in thinking that the birthright citizenship has not been on the table in conservatives' circles for a long time. I'm thinking that it's more than a handful and that it was always more than a handful.
I have stated this before but it is once again prescient: Ignorance is forever busy and needs feeding. The Internet has done a great disservice to these young halfwits.
The problem with Connor’s position is that he seems incapable of imagining that the autocracy he wants could be turned against him, violently. Nazis killed nazis when their leaders decided it was in their interest; bolsheviks killed bolsheviks. That’s the problem with prejudice-- the people who embrace it do so not realizing that they are setting an example for others to follow. This is what was once recognized as “opening Pandora’s box."
Witness the Latinos who voted for Trump and told interviewers he wouldn't come after THEM. He was just after those other guys, the "bad" guys. I don't know what they thought all those signs at the Trump rallies saying Mass Deportation Now meant.
Yes. Some people never seem to understand how easily they can become the “other” that they themselves despise.
Or not even despise. They just believed that trump couldn’t possibly mean them. They had never done anything wrong and just went to work every day and loved their families.
These MOFOs need some therapy or at least some strong medication 💊. It’s pathetic these f’kers claim to be Catholics. Connor, you’re a f’n loon who would be the first in line for the autocratic exterminators…God be merciful.
Our educational systems are also failing us. I say systems because curricula is left up to the states. Are civics classes even a thing now days? History classes have always been selective. For example, Juneteenth was never mentioned in my history classes growing up in suburban Chicago. The worldview was primarily Western European and other cultures were mere synopses in our history books. However, we did learn that the US was a “melting pot” and it was clear who the “good guys” were and who the “enemy” was as a result of our wars, especially as a result of World War II. For this generation, events shaping our culture such as WW II are ancient history. Trumpism, unfortunately, is shaping their worldview.
I grew up in a town in central NY settled in the 1800's by the English and Germans. (Ever watch "Drums Along the Mohawk? Mandatory viewing in elementary school.)
When Poles and Italians moved in (early 50's), it was a shock to the Anglo-Saxons. Lots of prejudices exposed. On all sides!
My mom's hairdresser was marrying out of her ethnicity. (In the 60's.) Her father was enraged. An Italian girl marrying a Pole!
My own experience, saddled with a Portuguese surname, was to be told I had to be Italian, with the name that "ended in a vowel." Like I was trying to hide my ethnicity. (My dad taught us that when asked "what we are," the answer was "American." )
So people do not group "others" together, as you suggested. We are tribal, and the miracle and greatness of the USA is our ability to, not assimilate, not be a melting pot, but adopt a common history of seeking freedom to be who we are, while respecting the rights of others to do the same. Within reason! And that is the tricky part.
I would LOVE to hear Mehdi on the podcast!
I enjoyed the back-and-forth between Tim and JVL reacting to the clips from Mehdi Hassan's debate with 20 right-wing or fascist white American youth. The clips were enlightening and also scared the hell out of me. The pride and glee with which many of these youth displayed their rejection of basics of American government like the Constitution and acceptance of democratic principles was startling.
Just a bunch of stupid young people looking for meaning and significance.
David, you hit right on it. They are thoroughly convinced of what they no know nothing about. In 5 years, they will think completely differently.
I wish that were true, but how will that happen? All the lies on the internet are not going away. Anger and hatred will continue to be fueled.
Carrie, ask yourself over the years, have your opinions changed? Mine sure have. One has to decide that the Internet is not the all seeing all knowing reference source. Time can change perspectives on where one gains insight and knowledge. The Internet is just the lazy way. It is like coping your friends homework. One finally realizes there is a better way but that way demands work. Not everyone will apply that but those of us that know what the Internet is don't rely on it to solve our questions or search for truth.
Of course my opinions have changed. But I was educated before the age of the internet and the phone. I read books. I listened to music. I listened to the radio: music and NPR. I have never gotten my news from a phone. I never joined Facebook. I was raised to think critically and question authority. I was raised to seek facts and information. I was educated on what the scientific method was and what the Enlightenment was and what happened in history. These kids were raised in a fever swamp. Who is there to show them that the internet is the lazy way? And here comes AI.
There will always be people who for many reasons, take the easy way to acquire information. Same reason subscribe to amazon. Impatient, want it now. Like you, I learned to do things without the Internet. I don't do social media or use the phone as an extention of my brain. Those of us who were brought up before all this artificial BS are far better off. We think critically but there will always be those who want fast and quick. We can only be a counter balance.
About the guy who believes white people are "native Americans" and can trace his lineage back to 1500-whatever... I am reminded of an episode of Henry Louis Gates' "Finding Your Roots" during which an actress this guy would define as Black learned she had both slaves and some important guy who got here on the Mayflower in her lineage. Not surprising, given how some plantation owners chose to grow their own workforce, so to speak. Of course, I presume this guy would apply the "one drop rule" to her, but he might want to avoid DNA testing as he might discover one or more of his white ancestors from back in the day might also have contributed few drops of non-white blood to his lineage, even if it doesn't show up in his current physical appearance.
This is so, so disturbing.
that still doesn't make him a native. nor any of the others in that crowd nodding their heads.
Absolutely
Don't know if you saw this yet
https://thecatholicherald.com/article/self-proclaimed-catholic-fascist-fired-after-jubilee-appearance
Interesting. Well, no worries for Connor, in addition to the $21,000 (and probably more by now) GoFundMe participants have sent his way, I'm pretty sure there's a government job in the Department of Homeland Security waiting for him.
Sadly, I'm pretty sure you're right.
Terrifying.
As a high school teacher for over a decade, I have lots of thoughts on what I just saw. A lot was performance. These are young people that have grown up with cameras and "likes" and having the chance to perform is hard to resist for many. Having said that, education is the only way to minimize the amount of people who fall for the fascist rhetoric. Every state has their own education system, so I can only speak for my own. But among the issues we face is that the push for STEM subjects took many kids out of the humanities, which is where we learn to think critically. Too many in our society have fallen for the framework that schooling is just job training, without emphasis on thinking skills. Another factor is the emphasis on testing. My students in the year 2025 expect to take multiple choice tests. They know that they only need to recognize the correct answer among four options. They rarely write, and even more rarely get meaningful feedback on their writing. Logic is rarely taught or explained. And there are many other issues that feed into the two I've mentioned. I could go on for days about parents that hold teachers far more accountable than they hold their kids. Because they only worry about the grade, not the process. Just some thoughts to add to the conversation. But we seriously cannot make it as a democracy if we don't produce citizens that can think.
Wonderful comment. Takes me back to my school days.
Tim & JVL, That was enlightening in a ugly sort of way. To be clear, Hasan's the best. If these punks are serious, the only way to reverse the perversion is watch and see if they can hold a job, afford a house and afford health care. Honestly, I have my doubts. Can you imagine what their parents must be like? Two guesses, lots of red hats or one white pointed hood. Look, if they want to be Nazis let's treat them as such. How's sterilization sound? I think, as life unfolds, they are in for an very, very rude awakening
they will find someone to blame when they can't hold a job, buy a house, etc. just like trump. when in trouble, look around for someone to point the finger at.
Outstanding.
Thanks Tim!
I grew up in the South in the 1950's and '60's. Almost every adult I knew was a segregationist and a white supremacist. The differences between these kids and the people I knew are: they would have said they believed in the Constitution but would have not included non-white people as having rights as they did; they already had control of everything and felt secure in that control.
Charles Lindberg was both an American hero and a fascist. This is not a new phenomenon in the United States.
I have Trump supporters in my family. They do not believe in democracy unless it produces a country dominated by white people, preferably male.
Most Americans. have no experience with democracy. They either under the thumb of the boss at work or they are the boss. Evangelical Protestant churches are often governed by the equivalent of a strongman. The Roman Catholic Church is not a democracy. Quite the opposite. Schools, from K-12 through university are not democracies at all. You have to be rich to get appointed the boards of trustees/visitors of a college or university. Old white people retire to "retirement communities" that are governed by people who do not live in them.
Where is democracy in the United States? The Rotary Club? The local school board or city council? Too few people ever participate in anything that looks like a democracy.
Authoritarianism is very American in every way.
Yes. Religions and patriarchy have primed many people for autocracy.
Very enlightening episode. What people defending autocracy do not want to understand is that when the autocrat wants something they would not want, there is no way to do anything about it. And I know of no autocrat who would let "the people" have weapons, by the way, for that very reason.
Yeah. Doesn't Russia have pretty restrictive gun laws?
Looking forward to you interviewing Mehdi.
I want to shine a spotlight on the final minutes of this episode for folks.
Tim and JVL rightly point out that the 20 fascists don't appear to understand that they've lost the debate (per rules of facts, logical reasoning, and presentation of evidence).
This is a PERFECT example of what I continue to harp upon:
A critical mass of these individuals are unpersuadable, and we need to stop pretending as though they are.
How does your behavior change regarding these individuals if you acknowledge that no combination of messaging or facts will reach them?
Your answers to this question may make you uncomfortable - and you NEED to answer it.
I don't think the goal of this exercise was to persuade or reach these 20 individuals. They are not the intended audience for these exchanges. The goal of this exercise was to expose these 20 individuals to the public as a sample of the type, substance, and quality of political thought of young Americans on the political right in the year 2025. If you came away from this conversation with a clear understanding not only that Mehdi handily "won" every "debate" but of how foolish he made these repulsive people look, and you are utterly disgusted and horrified by the ideas and ideologies they espoused and the apparent prevalence of this sort of thought within the young American right... the message reached you loud and clear.
Back for another comment: Christofascism and White Nationalism ARE THE EXACT SAME THING. As someone who grew up religiously (not geographically) adjacent to nutters like Douglas Wilson out of Moscow ID, they're the same.
I can’t wait until you get Mehdi on the pod but just read that the first facial was fired.
I don't think we convince these kids of anything, except indirectly through social pressure. A massive pro-democracy movement. Convince the more convincable people - the ones who aren't swimming in the self-selected cesspool that is Twitter and are responsive to realities like whether they have a hospital within 50 miles or a paramilitary occupying their streets. Get that group to abandon these dudes and push them back to the fringes.
DUH
JV, I could be wrong, but as someone who is neurodivergent (ADHD), has three children with the diagnosis, and works as a therapist specializing in ADHD (with a few clients on the autism spectrum--ADHD my wheelhouse more than autism is), this pompous young asshole does not present as neurodivergent to me. At all. I think he's just an asshole who is super excited about getting airtime and his more-than 15 minutes of fame.
I mean this as kindly as possible, but I really wonder how many neurodivergent people you know IRL?
Thank you for posting this, Meggles!
You have articulated my concern far more kindly than I was about to.
I think it's a lot more likely that this guy has a personality disorder...getting strong NPD vibes from him.
Tim touched on race correctly: it's all a construct. Demographic analysis built on "race" is a fantasy. Race is an ex post facto rationalization of "us" and "them", and the rationalizations of the laws protecting but not binding "us", and binding, but not protecting "them".
It's really interesting how the way we parse race has shifted over the years. Sean Illing had a fascinating interview over at Vox years ago (http://bit.ly/3TUGfvd), about how white supremacists use the concept of "western civilization" to basically co-opt classical Greece and Rome and draw a straight line between them and northern European (so white) culture. I'm a medievalist myself so I know a bit about how racial identities were shifting; suffice it to say for a lot of the old Greek and Roman philosophers, "civilized" humans would have been those around the Mediterranean, including people we'd now describe as from Near Asia and Africa, whereas the pale-skinned folk from northern Europe were "barbarians" with only qualified personhood and citizenship. I've always been fascinated by the conversation around St. Augustine's ethnicity, personally. The short version is he was definitely born in Africa, the child of I believe a Roman father and a Berber African woman; what that means in modern terms is where it gets interesting.
More broadly, and hopefully more simply: "whiteness" is always shifting. To my mind it's more about power and privilege than a distinct racial category.
But to paraphrase JK Rowling, just because it's happening in our heads doesn't mean it's not real. The historic and ongoing harm is real. So is the damage of asking people perceived as not-white (however you categorize that) to talk, act, and think like white people (again, however you categorize that). Acting like the *idea* of whiteness doesn't have real influence is denying a whole heck of a lot of lived reality, even if it's not, like, ontologically or biologically based on anything more substantial than cotton candy.
This is where I feel compelled to point out: despite the name Marta, I'm an American of northern European descent (the name's German in my case). For whatever the heck that's worth.....
I didn't mean to imply the constructs don't have impact in the real word– they absolutely do, and are a source of a lot of our misery. I agree the constructs are always shifting, precisely because they are constructs, meant to protect privileges and take advantage of out groups.
OMG. The glimmer of hope I see is these guys are young and may grow to see the ridiculousness of statements like “I’m not one of the people they’re going to kill.” Maybe. Also I’m curious how he can trace his ancestors’ immigration status to the 1500s. Are there even written records of European immigrants before the 1600s?
I joked last night about how he might trace his lineage back to the Spanish conquistadors, which is fascinating white nationalist cred; though I know some hispanics like Enrique Tarrio of the Proud Boys point to their "Spanish" heritage and try to claim European heritage through that.
Thinking more about it, Jacques Cartier was exploring what we'd now call Quebec in I think the 1530s, though I can't remember much settlement until the early 1600s. So possibly the guy's right, but it seems much more likely he's got his dates wrong.
Yes, after I gave this more thought, the Spanish angle occurred to me too. Oh, the irony. But I agree it’s more likely he has his dates wrong.
Not immigration records as such, but there are ship manifests. And local records of transactions, debts, ownership, etc. can tell people their ancestor was present, even if not when and how they arrived.
I also think some of these kids could change through maturity and experience - but suspect only a few will.
These guys terrify me... I wrote about them a bit here: https://open.substack.com/pub/publiusrants/p/disengagement-isnt-better?r=8a5vz&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
JVL - "...all seem supremely confident...."
Obviously, Dunning-Kruger. The less you know the more confidently you know it.
I got a remedy for these kids....mistakenly kidnap them and send them to cecot...that should cure their fascist tendencies
where does an American citizen whose citizenship has been revoked go?
The answer, obviously, is "who cares." Back to the "shithole countries" they "came from." /s
Sad, Jane, that people with this level of morality and common sense are in charge of the government.
I think you're right. To these folks, if you don't look/sound/believe like them, you don't deserve to exist, so it does not matter what happens to you. How any of this comports with the teachings of Christianity is beyond me. Seems like maybe they've moved past that as well.
Im talking about citizens who were born here
I know, Jane. My second sentence should have read, "back to the shithole countries their ancestors came from." Many of these a**holes are white nationalists who would be happy to purge the country of anyone who doesn't share their religion or skin color. Probably pro-genocide, too. True "us/them" people and they have no human feeling for "them."
Mr. Autocracy apparently lost his job and now he is whining like a spoil brat.
What does he think happens to out groups in a fascist autocracy? Guy is whining about "political discrimination" while professing his belief in a system that institutionalizes political discrimination as weaponized state action. "I didn't mean against me! Waghhh!"
All of these nasty ignorant facists are somewhat interesting, but far more interesting in these clips is how f**king brilliant Mehdi Hasan is. Wow.
Yeah, I didn't know he was that erudite.
This is so alarming.
How do we correct course away from the fascism that ripples through guys like the Nazi “Catholic” featured in the clip? I’d start with the Catholic part because what he spouted was neither Christian nor Catholic. It was primitive, tribal hate speech.
Franco as a benevolent leader—guy is a moron in addition to being morally bankrupt
Wow. These young people are completely historically illiterate and definitely not conservative, not capitalists, they are just fascists.
They are children - unsophisticated, ego-driven (selfish), with little understanding of the longer term consequences of their actions.
They are young adults and they are dangerous.
OMG. Mehdi you are amazing 👏
These people want the destruction, the complete destruction, of America. It’s sick.
And white men wonder why women are like no thanks
I usually watch on YouTube and no longer am considered a member. However, I'm glad to finally know JVL's real name. I used to have Tim emoji show up when I commented over there. Do I have to double dip?
Meanwhile, this was fucking shocking. I couldn't fucking believe it. I have an old musician friend who wasn't involved in J6 but got a full pardon for stalking 2 women. He attended the Crypto Ball. I dont talk politics with him. Otherwise… Thankfully he lives in NY.
I have been thinking a lot for a long time now on how to change minds. I think doing something similar to what Medhi just did only with different questions. You take the Nazi guy who said I wouldn't be in the group that gets killed - show him a photo of 100 people and have him pick 10 that need to be eliminated - then repeat - repeat - now - you still need to repeat only this time all that is left in the photo are blond hair blued white people / kids. then make him answer the question when in history has a dictator every not killed his own people - make him know Putin does it now - then force him to ask. the question - why his bigotry it better - I think the format in front of others where you take there points and turn it on them - but when they start acting like "they are winning the argument" you have to see that - stop the attitude an show them - I see this all the time in my work where people think Medicaid is for those lazy black brown people while they too are on Medicaid. People need to not be allowed to be ignorant. And we need to start shoving facts in their face.
How to teach people with the mental acuity of mice not to fall for the obvious traps is beyond my abilities. And any realization of their error usually means it's too late.
I hope our species figures this out, or humanity is just another one-hit wonder.
These are the types of folks who will be applying for those 10,000 ICE agent positions.
Yup. A gold mine of a recruitment event for our current leadership.
After watching, I decided to watch the full jubilee episode with Mehdi - i am horrified…. I hope that the show is just finding the most extreme people, and that they are not truly representative of the majority of young adults today.
I am definitely not making any assumptions about how representative those 20 are, except that there are enough of them that it was not like finding needles in a haystack to get them. Even if they represent 5% of Trump's supporters, it would not be hard for a show like this to get them.
Have you noticed the late-night comedy shows are doing less of those young people on the street that know nothing about anything bits?
Not so funny now.
This is a big problem.
If we look at this group of young people as a tribe, they receive positive feedback from their peers who believe the same way. There was a time when smoking was seen as cool, but now smokers receive negative feedback for their actions. There was a time in America when fascism was taboo! It will be again. Democrats need to address all the anger that Trump was able to weaponize. Happy societies don’t support authoritarian governments.
Wow! America is in some kind of deep doo-doo.
Hey now, guys. Sarah won't like it that you've tarred the people explicitly, publically self-identifying as fascists, “fascists”. 😗
Talking about all these younguns' brashness vs. ignorance about how the world really works reminded of a favorite song, about a young man challenging an old swordsman. It seems relevant just now. Poor young pups....
"You think your youthful speed and zeal will be the death of me,
My mind holds far more deadly tricks than you would live to see;
My wrist and arm are tempered steel, while yours are forming clay,
I killed my first before your birth; I'll kill you if you stay.
"It's all for naught; your sword leaps out, mine follows in reply;
It's sad, for I know what you don't - I know that you can die.
No time for words, but ponder this while choking on your blood:
Old swordsmen get to be that way by being very good. "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUiWnHgYw74
Not that anyone's asking my opinion, but I've actually been thinking a lot about what the Democrats' selling narrative could be. For me, it starts with two big points:
First: There are some similar problems, driven by similar causes, where everyone would benefit from having a solution. Government can and should provide that. The interstate system springs to mind. The post office. Weather science and storm forecasts, back when we still did that. Public K-12 schools, at least where there's adequate funding. We should do that for housing, child care, elder care, to name a few.
I'm not suggesting socialism. Some problems really are best solved by markets. But I think sometimes we just throw people to their tender mercies and don't let people work together to negotiate lower prices, or solve basic problems that drive prices up for everyone. The big problem is where the government actually meets peoples' needs well it's usually invisible, and where it doesn't, big cities in blue states get a seriously bruised reputation. But the other side (tax breaks for businesses, and let the free market sort out literally everything) isn't really working for most people either. We need to show how we can actually be smart and effective about addressing the problems we all face, ideally without blowing up the national debt even further.
Second: we need to get back to true, positive freedom. I'm thinking of Tim Walz's line from the campaign, "Mind your own damned business." Which means we liberals need to make space for people with opinions are different, even seem hateful, without us mocking or boycotting them. I'm sure there's a line where homophobic or racist or whatever language crosses a line, but quite often liberals can be really aggressive in penalizing someone for saying the wrong thing. Tolerance is a liberal virtue, or should be, and I do think we're all free when we recognize we don't get to have an opinion about every aspect of peoples' lives.
I don't think we're ever going to reach the people in those videos, and sadly it will be a while before they even stop feeling emboldened. But I think materially making peoples' lives better, combined with making space for them to be less than PC (or at least work out if what's PC matches what they really think) would go away toward reaching the rest of America.
Don't see any Nordic countries having existential meltdowns about the contentment of it's citizens or failures of leadership.
I think a pinch a socialism is what is needed to balance the stew.
Back when I taught intro philosophical ethics courses, we talked a lot about commodification. Like, Elizabeth Anderson's essay on surrogate pregnancy and the concern that no matter how decently they were treated, there was something wrong with selling your ability to grow and nurture a human life. The bottom line is, there were some things my students felt (& I agree) just shouldn't be for sale. And that's hard to square with certain extreme kinds of capitalism.
I think markets are a great tool and human society is much better off for what it's let us accomplish. But I also think it's up to us to use them for good goals. I don't know I'd ever go full-on socialism, but definitely I think capitalism should just be one tool in society's toolbox and sometimes we need other approaches. Also clamping down on extreme income inequality is just better for democracy and social cohesion; which doesn't mean if you work hard or are especially gifted in some way you shouldn't be rewarded for it, just that you shouldn't be able to think of yourself as some wholly different species from the rest of us. Recognizing those two facts seems like a decent start.
Exactly. Full on capitalism vs full on socialism is what most of us were presented with as realities growing up, without the real ramifications of either. Hopefully the evidence of experience will lead more to a more reasoned and rational humanistic approach.
They would all willingly die with Trump in his bunker…. until the cyanide capsules came out and the thought of mom's baloney sandwich hit them.
I briefly dated a guy who was able to control his bi-polar Schizophrenia long enough for us to get halfway through the 2nd date. Then he turned into “Conor”…..We got as far as halfway before I turned into “Hassan”.
In how many schools and other organizations children grow up in is there true equality of citizenship?
We're raised in social hierarchies, and these feel very authentic to us. Talk of equality and shared rule seems artificial, externally imposed, or at kindest, idealistic.
These kids behaved like the kids who rule their schools and orgs. They're used to it, and anything else seems like irrelevant politically correct or woke talk.
What a disgusting white slimy dude…
Are these people going to be the ones who become new hires for ICE?
I think they already are. See how they keep checking that their masks are in place.
I doubt their ancestors were in the current US in the 1500s unless they hailed from Spain or Portugal.
"1607: Jamestown – English, first permanent English settlement" with prior attempts failing. The French settled in present-day Canada.
I caught that also - "my ancestors have been hear since the 1500s".
Maybe they were with de Soto down in old Mexico. Talk about white pride....
He doesn't humiliate them unfortunately. They're too far gone.
The first surviving English colony in the Americas was established in Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607. Not the 1500s. The Mayflower was heading for Jamestown in 1620 but they got blown off course.
I suppose I feel that these kids have only known prosperity in their lives and have little to no understanding of the sacrifices made by young people of their approximate ages during the Second World War. I once visited the cemetery at Normandy. It was of the most moving experiences of my life. Walking through the rows of graves I took note of how young these soldiers were when they perished for the cause of democracy. Perhaps if anyone of these brats were taken to this hallowed place, they would somehow feel a sense of shame. Or perhaps not.
Unless it was raining, and then they'd just be worried about their hair.
Like Trump .... Suckers and Losers .... All buried there not realizing that Churchill was the real problem, Not Hitler. .... Excellent comment Mr. Gerald .... There is a Normal Patriotism as opposed to this White Nationalism Fraud.
Atypical does not equal “abnormal” nor “wrong”. The word you’re looking for is different. We’re just as natural and valuable as you. We’re just different in some ways that tend to lead judgmental neurotypicals to be cruel to us. Statistically we’re actually much less likely to be bad or harmful to others than neurotypicals are.
I'm neurodivergent myself. Please don't group us in with Elon, Stephen, or the rest!
In the late 1800s, anti-immigration authors like DeCourcy Ward and Madison Grant often used the term “native Americans” to mean English settlers in the Colonies. They were not indigenous peoples, and were held to be “superior” to later arrivals like Germans and Irish. These neo-fascists seem to use the term in the same way.
This is scary that those young people are so hateful. Is this what people are raising? Thought we were better than this
I get the feeling they're hamming it up. They volunteered to be there just so they could challenge that guy. Doesn't excuse it (or make their "opinions" any more rational), of course....
that seems like an insane gamble to me
I had the same impression. that much of this was trying to see how outrageous they could be in order to generate as many negative reactions as possible - the meatspace equivalent of click-bait?
They have sealed their fate as incels for life even if it was an act.
Yes yes have Mehti on.
I'm relatively young and thought I had a pulse on the trends in the youthful right wing, but the bluntly open advocacy of the furthest extremes on display here still surprised me... Super disturbing stuff. I did laugh a few times at the idiocy of these people, especially the guy who seemed completely confused at the prospect that a dictator might not be eternally grateful to his supporters and do nothing to harm them, but this is downright scary.
I suspect a lot of this recent swing towards fascism in this demographic of mostly young white guys starts out as a semi-ironic stance against what they see as dominant "woke" societal views, but once you're in an echo chamber, it's easy to start to earnestly adopt these positions. These people clearly don't understand the horrors of the system their advocating for, but that doesn't mean they won't cheer as Trump or Vance or some even worse successor drags us into an ugly future, and anyway I suspect the followers of various fascist dictators in the '30s were mostly oblivious to the end results to come as they celebrated the emerging dictatorships too.
The dude going on about Native Americans originally coming over the land bridge from Asia had a point as far as it goes, that migration is a constant throughout history, but if anything that demonstrates how ludicrous the fixation on having a long family history in America is. What made this country great throughout a tumultuous history was the melding of people from all over under common ideals. Last thought - ending birthright citizenship is quite monstrous - even your most stereotypical "Real American" would have to go through an effort to prove the citizenship of their own parents, which might not be easy if those parents are deceased, and that's assuming we're not looking back at the legal status of further generations into the past.
Claiming non-originality of any peoples to the land they live on, to then claiming sole ownership of that land, is the kind of cognitive separation and logic that makes sense to morons.
I think a lot of these people are born this way. Nothing to roll back. Not sure why natural selection is selecting fascists and white nationalists, but it is. Tribalism? Survival in the face of extreme violent chaos coming due to climate change, overpopulation and resource scarcity? I dunno.
Their just the loudest. They are not the strongest. Because age makes you stronger.
To the Gen Xers:
To quote Jerry Maguire: ‘Breakdown? Break through.’
-A
There is still a great deal of segregation in middle class suburbs in this country, both racial and economic. These young people have no experience with other cultures or races or how families not like their own live. Obviously their friends and parents influenced them also. We desperately need to conscript young people into a period of national service or the military where they can experience the real world.
The Peace Corps and other community service institutions used to be a thing that many people my aged looked forward to doing.
Now it's much more popular to be good at shooting video game opponents.
Not if the military is full of FOX viewers who love Trump. Hegseth pushed another woman out of her military leadership role.
Watched the whole thing, and Mehdi was unbelievable!
Tim, I get that we're not going to see eye to eye on Gaza, but it was just kind of heartbreaking that, after specifically pointing out that you agree with Mehdi's first three claims, that you just left his claim about ethnic cleansing in Gaza without comment. Do you not agree that Trump getting Gaza cleared out so that he can develop it would be ethnic cleansing?
It's not like I'm trying to get you to Zohran's position on the matter. I just wish you would articulate (hopefully you have) some limit to what Israeli actions you can support and be fine with our tax dollars enabling.
This kind of negates the idea that all Democrats have to do is get on right wing media outlets. These people don't seem to listen to any point Medhi makes.
I think Dems need to go on Rogan, Flagrant and that sort of thing for sure, and those audiences are way more gettable than the folks Mehdi skewered.
Please pardon the self-indulgent meanness, but the self anointed "native American" contestant #2 looked a little like the second cousin of Cletus, Rabert Funkus McEarle. Current Strawbourd county title holder for Ragin' Cajun Barroom blackbelt.
Re the guy who talks about his family being here for centuries: I too am someone whose family has been here for centuries, and it's disgusting to see anyone try to use that accident of birth as a cudgel to insult someone like Mehdi Hasan. At the same time, it bothers me a little that JVL seems to receive any mention of long American lineage as some manifestation of blood and soil nationalism. I don't think there's anything wrong with being rooted in a place and loving that place, valuing the long history your own family has in that place. I'm not more American than anyone else; I'm just an American with a particular story, as Mehdi Hasan is an American with a particular story. Cherishing the variety of our stories is central to what makes us Americans. The sad thing is that those boys he was debating don't know that.
I found it extremely telling that the group let the self proclaimed fascist keep talking for a long time after he said that. Then, immediately after that guy, someone said they thought arresting Mahmoud Khalil for leading protests was wrong, and they all immediately raised their flags and kicked him out.
It's one thing for Jubilee to dig up some guy from Twitter who claims he's a fascist. It's another thing for the rest of the crowd to be fine and accepting of it. They have tolerance for a fascist but no tolerance for civil protest and due process.
What strikes me about all the guys going up against MH here (like all the online white nationalist/Christofascist types I've seen) is that they're clearly weak spoiled brats. They're brittle — when MH claps back, they get agitated, like "How dare this brown man challenge me." They're pitiful debaters and don't seem to know it. It is funny to see people cheering for fascism who would probably crumble in the face of any real physical threat.
That's not to say I think they're harmless, since they're so ready to enable other people to do violence. It's just remarkable how little they understand that the system they want would easily crush them.
FWIW, I doubt any kind of counter-messaging is likely to break through with most guys like this, though I do think it's important to have that for the sake of younger kids coming up. Life will either humble these already-lost boys and teach them better or it won't. They're a walking advertisement for mandatory national service.
> They're a walking advertisement for mandatory national service.
You are the second person in these comments who says that military service as a solution to the White nationalism racism problem.
The polls say that 65% of veterans voted for Trump last year. That's a greater percentage than White men (60%), White women (53%), White Catholics (63%). Only barely less than White no-college (66%), and somewhat less than White Protestants (72%).
Everything I have read about the military says that it is a breeding and recruiting ground for White Christian nationalists and neo-Nazis. The US Air Force is particularly fertile for this (I wish I could find that article that I read many years ago).
Military service does not seem like the solution. Rather, it seems to be part of the problem.
By "national service", I would like to see something like the Peace Corps or Conservation Corps. Some kind of community service, rather than military service, unless some chose the military. Your statistics are, sadly, very telling.
It's alway easier to recrute the violent revenge seekers.
If the "Scared Straight" ethos is what we're kind of reaching for here, it's sounds great! Except it turns out that program also had statisitcally limited results.
I'm not thinking about the brats here being scared straight. It's more that I think they need to get their heads out of their asses and experience the profound feeling of satisfaction that comes from doing something useful for other people. Of course, we don't actually know anything about them from this video, but they strike me as young men who have not known much of that.
I said national service, not military service. Service can take a multitude of forms, and I would love to see young people get a variety of opportunities.
The U.S. military does seem to have a white nationalism problem, so no argument there. But the majority of people in the military have nothing to do with that. One of the many disgusting things about Pete Hegseth is that he seems to be undermining everything that's positive in U.S. military culture. I've been out there protesting U.S. interventions abroad for decades, so I'm no cheerleader for war or our bloated defense budget. But at the same time, I know a lot of people who've served, including family, and for most of them it has been a positive thing. Not a one has become a white nationalist.
I was going to lose it if that guy said "quite frankly" one more time.
Sorry, this needed to have better closed captioning. "Frankly" in brospeak translates to "ignorantly".
Yeah, like his earnest ignorance was plain enough to see…
Tim, since if I understood you correctly, you said you talked a little like these guys in some younger incarnation of yourself, I think it would be terrific if (in thinking about "how can we change these young men's worldview") you could share what changed you, what kept you from staying on that path and becoming a Stephen Miller (sorry!). Was it one person who influenced you, things you saw that evoked empathy, a particular class in school? I'd love to know.
Franco fascist? Yuck. Go fucking watch Pan’s Labyrinth, dude!
i cannot stomach these white privilege toxic boys
Not for violence by nature, but a serious beating could be therapeutic.
Yes, please let's talk to Mehdi. He clearly holds his own but why should he have to. Just fucking sad.
LOVE THESE QUICK RESPONSES!!!!!
Your offerings of Social Justice Catholicism vs. this crazy ass-Christian Nationalism is fantastic!!
(Jesus's Beatitudes vs. Old Testament angry, smiting God)
BTW - this asshole "whitey" has ancestors from the 1500s??? (Most probably from the 1800s.), has no idea that the Jamestown colony was in the early 1600s, the Pilgrims in the early 1600s, and the Dutch in Manhattan in the 1600s.
It seems timelines are irrelevant to these ignoramuses.
Your Adopted Uncle Chris
The question was asked about how to change the opinion of these young people on the subject of fascism.
Would being held indefinitely in a gulag by an authoritarian strongman change their position?
Would watching jackbooted masked thugs beat up their family for no good reason be enough?
Or perhaps you just won’t sway the minds of over privileged morons that believe they know everything.
Maybe their hero just needs to be shown for what he really is.
I’ll spring for the tissues…
It's spring time for Trump and the MAGAs. Winter for the Democrats.
Maybe more like late summer? The leaves are beginning to wither.
terrifying
1500s? !? What is he talking about the first colony on the North American continent that survived was Jamestown in 1607. Or were his ancestors down in Spain's holdings conquering the natives down there - somehow I doubt it. Ignorant of history and unappreciative what and who has actually created this country.
Also, Tim and JVL, please do a primer on Vermeule. For some reason he flies under the radar while the tech bros get all the attention, and that makes him much more dangerous because people aren’t as aware of how much influence he has over the consolidation of executive authority and weakening the judiciary. Vance, a Catholic convert technocrat, is made in his image.
On JVL's point (and I haven't read the comments so I'm sorry if this is echo chambery) the reason that this is a very "own the libs, don't concede you lost" kind of vibe is that the notion of having a fundamental love of something (like democracy or the constitution) and yet disagreeing on the implementation of that system has been lost.
We used to be able to debate on the merits of immigration or the first amendment because fundamentally most of us engaged in the debate were all coming from a place of respect.
Also just as a former debate kid none of these people would have survived at my hs club, let alone should be sitting against Mehdi!
I read an article in The Atlantic by Peter M. Shane about the presidency that John Roberts built before switching to The Bulwark so I came into this conversation in a pretty bad headspace. No surprise that my headspace is now far worse. I admire Mehdi so much for putting himself out there in the midst of all this hate. Our kids are transracial adoptees. In the summer of 2020 my teenage daughter asked me what it was like to be white. I said, "I don't think about it." Which has been my definition of white privilege since. The complete lack of gratitude and empathy shown by these white supremicists infuriates me. Tim, see if you can interview some of these assholes. Or better yet JVL. Straight, white, Catholic man. Lure them in, eat them up, and spit them out.
Time to unleash Bad JVL on these fascists.
Thank you. That is the best, most succinct definition of white privilege that I've ever seen. I had this happen with gender in a class once--debating how women didn't feel safe leaving at night to the dark parking lot across the street. One woman asked the men, who were actively being ignorant, "Do you look in your backseat before you unlock your car door out there." The guy says, "No, I don't lock my door." And the more than half of the class that was female exploded. Not to equate that with being black or brown and not having the privilege of "not thinking about it!"
We need pro democracy content that educates. And also movies and tv shows showing diversity and creating pride in our melting pot or whatever metaphor. Remember when Hamilton made the story interesting?
I started watching this but it made me feel so hopeless and terrified about the future of this country that I had to stop. I’m not laughing. These people aren’t clowns. They’re a legitimate danger to society, and there are a lot more of them than we realize. They have always been there and they have always identified with the Republican party, but their worst instincts were constrained and shunned. Now they’ve been normalized and legitimized, and they aren’t going to crawl back into their caves without a violent fight.
Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD): ASPD is characterized by disregarding the rights of others, including lying, aggression, and mistreatment. Traits associated with ASPD, such as low empathy and hostility, could contribute to racist attitudes or actions. Who does this sound like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mcCLm_LwpE
The question Mehdi neglected to ask the first fascist kid was - what if you establish a fascist state and a Democrat comes into power and decides to wield absolute power over him?
Quite frankly someone butterfly net this moron
Woke backlash and what we just saw are not correlated.
Strong agree.
What's worse, if we throw minorities to these wolves, they won't be satisfied.
Fascism can't be satiated, only defeated.
Please do get Mehdi on, I'm interested in his take on the experience as a whole. As for the kids there, you can't argue or talk them into changing or educate them into more enlightened views. This is all alarming, exemplifying the mean, petty, insular nature of the far right. Who can doubt that given the same opportunities and advantages of Abbott, Desantis, and Trump, and gaining power any of them would act with less cruelty, greed, and disregard for the law? The only hope lies in them gaining experience as they get out into the world and growing out of the worst of their views. A faint hope, at best.
Since these people and their comments will be on YouTube and its successor for the rest of their lives, I hope they remember that "the law says what I say it means" works in both directions.
"for me and not for thee"
This was eye-opening and very scary. This kind of ignorance and bigotry was always around but rarely flaunted and celebrated until Trump made it OK. You are right that this is generational damage to our country and it will take a long time to set straight. I have been worried about the kids ever since I saw the small children with their parents at Trump rallies 10 years ago.
I suspect these ARE those kids. They are adults, and as some others have pointed out, we shouldn’t be referring to them as children.
It is likely that many if not most of the kids taken to those rallies have grown up to be as deluded and politically extreme, or more extreme, than their parents are. Yes, they are adults and responsible for their own decisions. More shame on those parents, though, for subjecting their children to years of lies and brainwashing. It is an American tragedy.
What Rabbit hole did you both send me down? Best reality show in the last 20 plus years btw.
A bunch of young (some youngish- talking to you first guy) MAGA voters trying to fail at logic.
I think they think that they could win Tic-Tac-Toe. Just if they argued hard enough.
To Someone…
https://youtu.be/nlaoR5m4L80?feature=shared
Tim, nobody was forcing woke sh*t down anybody's throat. We asked that people not insult or disrespect us to our faces and that was too big an ask. Don't make excuses for these Hitler Youth.
We must arm, train, and form groups to defend the Constitution now. I've been saying this since the first Trump term. We must now.
Ugh, this makes me ill.
I do not want to hear another [expletive] word about the birth rate or "male loneliness epidemic" EVER AGAIN.
Why won't women date "conservatives"???
/s
Or "libertarians!" Hey, baby, what's the matter, you don't like freedom? No, Braxton, I don't like conservatives claiming to be libertarians because they know they won't get laid if they call themselves the former...and have so little respect for women's intelligence that they truly do not think we understand their super sophisticated word game.
Hence my "bisexual but haven't dated a man in >5 years" thing. I feel for the straight ladies. There is not enough "rizz," swag, money, or anything else to make these cretins dateable. I don't care if the birth rate goes negative. Let the species die off.
Apologies to the good dudes in the comments, of which there are many. <3. This isn't directed at you...but I do think you have probably passed up plenty of opportunities to intervene in your friends' terrible behavior. How many times have I heard about how so-and-so's friend Shaun is an idiot but they've been friends since grade school so what's a guy to do? IDK, maybe say something to him when he's harassing women? We choose the bear because y'all taught us to.
My constant interventions into the horrible world views of people I've known forever has left me with considerably fewer people in my life. And I'm so much happier for it.
The world unfortunately still has to deal with these people, but I don't.
Ha! Strong agree, Shana.
As a card-carrying, gold-star, lifetime heterosexual, let me say: I absolutely do not blame you.
I think the existence of some straight ladies PROVES that sexuality is genetic, cause no way would women be choosing us otherwise. It has to be an immutable characteristic.
I do NOT blame you for letting the species die off, nor for choosing the bear.
Also: “Braxton” had me ROTFLMAO.
Short of dosing our water supply with LSD for some mind expanding trips, I’m not sure if anything can be done to change them.
This shit is not about immigration. The entire history of the US has involved immigration. It is about what they perceive as the “wrong” type of immigrants. Again, they aren’t asking for Melania to be deported.
That said this attitude has existed in the US for centuries! The only difference is that after a (half) black guy had the nerve to become president, some people (like DJT) thought things had gone too far! And then trump made it acceptable to express these racist opinions out loud!
But let’s not pretend/forget groups, like the KKK, existed to keep the “wrong type” of people in their place - which many believe Obama did not. If you believe folks of European decent’s fair share should be 100%, then letting the “wrong type” get a share of the pie is a bridge too far and thus, a situation that must be corrected!!!!!
Yup. They just hate the "darkies," because they are as trash as their ancestors from the Jim Crow days. I hate JVL's Cletus caricature...but he's not wrong.
What can be done? Create more opportunities to feel empathy. They should witness the human suffering they advocate for. They have to witness the consequences of their beliefs. Right now it's all abstract theory to them.
Perhaps send them to the Salvadoran gulag for a few months?
K, you go. I'll hold your purse and earrings and help decontaminate you after. :)
I don't know what context this would ever take place in, but I'd pay money to see Mehdi wipe the floor with JD Vance in a debate.
I’m afraid all the JD supporters would see him as winning no matter what happened.
No doubt. JD could belch instead of speak in response to every question and his people would still be like 'that man is a debate artiste.'
RE: JVL asking if they're neurological
I think so, but I think they just grew up without any friends.
Every week I watch Charlie Kirk's Thoughtcrime - purely as an anthropological exercise - and it usually seems like 4 guys who never had friends who are pretending to be friends, cosplaying that they have inside jokes.
I see that same phenomenon here.
no friends, just like trump, stephen miller, jd vance, the trump kids, tom homan, etc etc etc. truly damaged humans.
They're neurotypical in the way that sociopathic kids who torture cats are neurotypical. You know, like Stephen Miller!
This is DISGUSTING and HORRIFYING. AND so White Supremacist.
I remember seeing something quite similar with Pete Buttigieg and 20 skeptical, non aligned young voters. But they were not ideological idiots like this group. It was Pete's job to convince. As I recall, he did a pretty reasonable job at it.
These kids believed they won because they're playing from a different rule book. They've grown up in a world where facts and consequences are fluid, where popularity and the appearance of strength win, and where intelligence or expertise might actually be a liability.
By that metric, Medi sounds like an oppositional elite who is sufficiently out of touch with the trending ideology to defend a system that they believe is failing. The fact that he is right gives him zero points in this debate, and may actually be a liability. They probably find him laughable and annoying.
God help us if more Americans buy into this world view.
And, what is at the bottom of it, is that they do not consider Americans like Mehdi to be “real” Americans. Racial profiling is at the heart of it. These white supremacists hide behind their whiteness. And we are also getting to the point where your accent is also being judged, and if you speak another language such as Spanish, that is also unacceptable and “un-American” to them.
If you watch the entire thing, there is a white, blue eyed, blonde woman who comes to the table. She goes on about how her parents are citizens, but also that they are immigrants and naturalized citizens. When Mehdi points out that her parents are citizens like him, she insists they are not the same. She gets very flustered, because, maybe because she is female, idk, she holds back the tiniest amount by not saying what she is really saying out loud. That _her_ parents are "citizens" (unlike Mehdi) because they are European white people. She squirms and eventually gets voted out.
I don’t know why Mehdi subjects himself to that. I was horrified watching the clips which is max of what I could take. But I was reminded of all these “2024 election autopsies” that (when they aren’t throwing trans people under the bus) discuss how to “win back young white male voters.” There is nothing I want Dems to do to attract THOSE voters. They are horrible people. The question is, as Tim said, how can we prevent this. 1.First, we need to fully fund Social Emotional Learning, mandatory at every grade, preK through 12. Some states are not allowed to use the term SEL & have to call it something like “employability skills.” Which is dumb but fine. 2. We need a progressive version of Turning Point USA so that our side provides that support & indoctrination.
Mehdi Hasan has further galvanized my commitment to a national divorce. These differences are totally irreconcilable (like the human slavery we overlooked for the sake of "unity," and which has poisoned everything since then because you cannot live peaceably among people who seek only to hate and subjugate others). If you disagree, please enlighten me -- without suggesting that decent people throw themselves on a pyre for the scum of the earth, because I'm not doing that. I'm 45 and have been giving sh*tty people chances for >30 years. Fresh out. Retaining a lawyer. Dividing the assets. Rented a house, getting the dog I wanted, the whole nine. We are never, ever getting back together.
But who gets custody of the aircraft carriers?
;-)
Haaa. Community property, baby! 50-50 split. :)
I got about 15 minutes into watching the.....whatever that is called and I couldn't take it anymore. These people are proudly idiotic that it's painful to watch.. Bless you two for sticking with it to the end.
“Proudly idiotic.”
A conclusion: Don't get onto a debate with Medhi Hassan. It won't end well.
I would love to debate Mehdi! I think I could learn a lot from it. But I haven't heard anything I disagree with him on yet.
Please have Mehdi on.
(Whispers: they can't. Not after last time).
(Whispers: what happened last time?)
(Whispers: it was a bit of a disaster. AFAIK, the Bulwark had (has) maintained a 100% record of never platforming a single guest who advocated for the basic human rights of Palestinians ... except for Mehdi.
Tim had him on, right before the election, for Mehdi to endorse Harris and push Mehdi's followers to ignore the genocide and vote for the "lesser of two evils".
Mehdi did neither. Tim said that he (Tim) would vote for someone who had killed his own family members rather than risk the return of Trump. It was awkward.
Basically, it was a good ol' fashioned "Sister Souljah" moment for young people, progressives, and Muslim voters to "fall in line" ... that didn't work.
Anyway, Mehdi is too smart to come on The Bulwark to ONLY talk about the behind-the-scenes at Jubilee. Tim is smart enough to know this. I mean, Mehdi might ask Tim about the American citizen who was recently murdered by Israeli terrorists in the West Bank, a story that The Bulwark has not covered.
Anyway, here's the link to the podcast. The word "genocide" is mentioned 6 times:
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mehdi-hasan-memory-holing-the-worst
)
Well, I was wrong.
Not only did Gaza come up, but Tim brought it up a couple of times as well.
I don't know what's happening here; first he let Cam cook on an anti-genocide rant yesterday, and now this?
Is ... is ... is it happening? After two years, is it happening?
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mehdi-hasan-jubilee-debate-left-me?r=3hh94p&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
One of Mehdi's claims for the debate was that Trump is promoting ethnic cleansing in Palestine. (True.) A young fascists misread Mehdi's claim as antisemitic, and responded with enthusiasm, pleading that he and Mehdi should be allies. They don't agree on everything, he reasoned, but they both hate Jews. Mehdi did not buy that claim at all, and shut the young fascist down.
A naive argument is "this is horseshoe politics - both extremes are antisemitic".
It's a little more than just that. These young fascists (and US evangelist Christians) hate Jews, while Mehdi (and I) hate the crimes of the State of Israel, while loving the tenets of Judaism.
The confusion arises around the intentional conflation of Zionism and Judaism.
You gotta be careful and ALWAYS be clear about who, and what, the criticism is directed at, because bad faith actors will inevitably accuse you of antisemitism.
Lately, pro-Zionist entities like the ADL and prominent CNN hosts have been accusing anti-Zionists of anti-semitism, but giving the actual antisemites on the right a pass.
JVL, are you sure there is a difference between Christo Fascism vs White Nationalist Fascism!!!! AND how come trump gets to have (had) 2 out of 3 foreign born wives!!! Not to mention a foreign born mother!!!!
I live in Europe and as far as I know Europe is NOT a part of the USA!!!!
There's a lot of overlap, but the Venn Diagram is not a perfect circle.
Culture is cyclical and we're back in the 80's. They were called skinheads back then. In love with fascism and nazis. Many infiltrated local police departments. That shit is back in vogue and Stephen Miller is their patron saint. Unfortunately, social media gives them a much greater reach this time. Regard them with the utter disdain they deserve.
They’re pro-authoritarianism until it negatively impacts them. They think they will be protected from the fascism, but if trump is the leader he will eventually turn on them too!!! As the saying goes: “Be careful what you ask for - you might just get it!!!
They're pro-authoritarian because they know jack shit about what that means or the consequences. They just want to puff themselves out and look tough, because they're not.
While you are right, it doesn’t change the fact that these young men have these hateful racist sexist attitudes. I don’t want to “work on” changing those dweebs, but I would like us to prevent more of them.
I agree. But the stupidity has reached such a critical mass, the echo chamber just reinforces the madness. Education? Not anytime soon, better role models? Not in their lives apparently, or they wouldn't have turned out this way.
How do you break the cycle?
Houston? We have a problem…
Do we think people really believe this stuff or is it just a springboard to social media clout and money? Cause these are all influencers and enragement equals engagement. (I really hope they’re just carnival barkers)
Most of them believe it.
Doesn't really matter if they believe it or not - their multitudes of followers do.
These children are the inevitable outcome of a denuded American education system combined with social media. They're perfect foot soldiers, everything the far right has dared to dream about achieving, residents of an echo chamber who have no concern for right or wrong and no belief that anything like objective reality exists. The solution to minds this disordered is to fully fund public education and decouple it from residential tax income, and if we're not going to just throw the switch and kill Twitter/Facebook/Tiktok, then at the very least institute real barriers to entry for people who are too young to understand that no, it's not actually reality.
Since so much time was spent on the kid who pointed to his ancestors’ arrival in the 1500s it’s worthwhile to note that even the mayflower arrived in 1620.
I kept waiting for that to be mentioned. 😆
Re: Mayflower arrival in 1620, I was hoping Medhi would promptly ask, who were they that arrived prior to 1620?
Correction on name: Mehdi —sorry
Mehdi is superhuman for enduring that. In fact, anyone who listened to that in its entirety is superhuman. I tapped out at eight minutes when Nazi dough boy described the Holocaust as "a little bit of persecution." I may dip back in later when I'm not eating (I don't recommend pairing this video with your lunch break). God help us.
The whole time; before, during, and after, I was worried about Mehdi's personal safety.
Mehdi is wicked smart. I might need to subscribe to Zeteo!
Well worth it.
I did not hear the girls, but being the mom of 4 boys who are the ages of that circle now, this comes from too many video games, isolation, on-line life supplementing real relationships. And limited paths to success if you are in dying towns with a high school education. It is about needing a bigger pie, and education.
Also (White) Evangelical churching, homeschooling, and institutions like Patrick Henry College and Liberty University that cater to that crowd.
Holy cow. I'm a Mayflower descendant, and I'm repulsed by the idea that gives me any more stake in this country than anyone else. I'm repulsed by the statement that being born here makes you "native" American. It's alarming that these people feel so unencumbered by civility to spout such offensive BS.
Also, regarding Mayflower boy, I guarantee that he has more recent immigrants in his family tree.
If all his antecedents were on the Mayflower, he's definitely the product of excessive inbreeding (there were only 130 people -- passengers and crew -- on the ship). And the ancestors who he is so proud of came to this continent specifically because they did not want to live in an autocratic, fascist state.
This is depressing.
Really depressing.
Yes! Atypical
Connor seemed like a jerk, but not on the spectrum. But being autistic is not an excuse for that kind of thinking. One may be more concrete or perhaps less able to orally express your ideas, but autism does not rid people of empathy. That’s on the individual—like Musk!
I have been saying the GOP are Nazis since 2015. I was ridiculed. I was called apoplectic. It is clear they are Nazis. They began to create a Gestapo that is now incredibly well funded. They are illegally, grabbing people off the streets and deporting them and sending them to third countries when they have no connection and no legal status. They're going to end birthright citizenship and they're going to start denationalizing groups of people. Eventually, this will include Jews because it always include Jews. And just like the Nazis when they can no longer find places to send the people they want to get rid of, there will be another holocaust. If you can't see this, you are not looking hard enough.
The first guy was the only one I saw enough of to form an opinion. It was pretty obvious to me he had no interest in debating, and couldn't give less of shit about whatever position he was supposed to be defending. He was there to get content to post on his own social media by unflinching spouting chisto-fascist bullshit. In his circle, you don't get points for advancing logical arguments, you get them by refusing to acknowledge that your own arguments have nothing to back them up their own desire to tell other people what to do.
Fascist don't win by winning debates, the win by making the 60-80% of folks who don't want fascism afraid to oppose them. This is why I am personally of the opinion that it is more important for the opposition to resolute at this moment than to be clever. (Both would be nice.)
One last thing. If Democrats messaged like Joe Walsh the Senate would be 60:40 Blue.
I'm neurodivergent and I can trace my lineage in America back to the 1600's. I do feel like I have a little bit more stake in things here, just because I see all these articles popping up about getting citizenship somewhere else but only if you can trace back there within a couple generations.
Anyway, in my younger days I was concerned about heavy immigration from places that didn't have a solid history of liberalism, that they would turn the USA into something like what they came from. But they were trying to escape that - and the call was coming from inside the house...
As for the operative question at the end, the only solution I can think of is to get to the root of what these people are upset about. If it's really just racism at the root then there's maybe nothing that can be done but I still get the feeling that if every non-white was deported they'd just find another thing to be upset about. I think it comes down more to people just feeling like their life isn't what they deserve, in some cases it might be a legitimate complaint and they just need to be redirected to a better target.
You are right that these young men feel victimized and need a scapegoat to blame for their unfilled life. Look at their leader. A rich guy given every advantage, financially bailed out by his father a few times, yet Trump is still the biggest victim in the country. And he is their role model. God know why!
"Anyway, in my younger days I was concerned about heavy immigration from places that didn't have a solid history of liberalism"
Ohhh, that's funny. Heh. Good one.
Do you know about the long history of US fascism prior to, during, and even after World War 2?
And that illiberalism wasn't led by immigrants.
You quoted them out of context.
Why'd you do that?
Did I?
The second part of their statement rebuts the first.
Go reread it.
Ladies and gentleman, welcome to the future face of America.😑
Too much Red Bull for Connor the Nazi.
The solution here is for Democrats to win at all cost. Shrink the power of the Republican Party (fox law suits, expand SCOTUS, full court press with legislatures, learn to coordinate, and mirror message like republicans. Shrink the power of the right everywhere. When Michelle Obama says “when they go low, we go high” Do the OPPOSITE.
Biden’s true failure wasn’t running again, it was being naive as to the state of politics and not righteously Crushing Trump when he had the chance (DOJ). Biden thought it was 1981. It was 1931…
You are so on point! Biden did not realize how deep and supported this warped world view was. He believed in the goodness of people and could not fathom the evil that was in the shadows.
I know, right?!? But now his institutionalism is going to cost the very institutions he was aiming to protect. Massive miscalculation….
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Are you agreeing?
Yep!👍🏽
I'm Catholic. What protects my religious liberty is having a secular government prohibited from promoting religion. These fascists are scary!! 🤯
I think Tim and JVL hit on something important at the end. These people think, “Yeah? Well, I don’t care!” is a substantive and powerful argument. It’s their go-to, and Trump’s, for any situation in which they’re wrong or the facts don’t align with their version of reality.
The self confidence comes from a sense that they are part of an ENORMOUS community that views this as mainstream. This isn’t fringe anymore, it’s just next to center right. This is a massive red flag. Alarm bells should be going off. The Bullwark needs to get serious about schooling Democrats on how to run campaigns!
I agree with you. They believe they have a contingent behind them which emboldens them. These are the most Anti-American people I have ever met. They hate the Declaration of Independence, they hate the Constitution, they hate democracy. I have yet to understand what they like about America. This reminds me of the Greater Idaho Movement that wants to secede from Oregon. All these people could just move if they hate where they live.
They like that it has had a lot of white, vaguely protestant people in control.
they should move to Russia
Easy to blame someone else for your dead end life…. :(
Tim, the sad part for me is that everything happening right now will take, as you put it, at least a generation to roll back the identity of young conservatives that have been molded by Trump and Stephen Miller. My days on this planet are numbered and I mourn the loss of America to Trumpism because I will not be around the see the final cleansing of this insidious movement.
I am in complete agreement (as a senior citizen), that I will not share in the sheer joy of the end of Trumpism.
Tim and JVL are laughing, I’m going to call it nervous laughter and give them a pass. There was nothing funny here, scary as hell that these people think the way they do and are so self-unaware.
Far right/left stuff has existed always, agreed. What’s different is that they’ve used to hide under rocks. Not anymore….
Exactly! Hide under rocks, under hoods, under smiles… just under.
Had the same thought. I think it’s nervous laughter. Maybe even the slightest bit of embarrassment?
Yup.
These people didn't come out of nowhere. They are not aliens. They are not sui generis.
Neither is Trump.
This "Catholic fascism" has always been with us - it bubbled up a little while ago in an article "Against David French-ism" in First Things magazine.
But quasi-Fascism is in the Democratic Party too - just watch the last Shield of The Republic. It is perhaps the most illiberal, anti-American proposition I have ever heard coming out of the mouths of "Democrats".
Appalling. Not funny.
Terrifying
Also, I find these clips absolutely terrifying. All of a sudden it’s OK in our society to say that I support the Nazis. That is very very dangerous.
What if the entire Democratic Party labeled Trump a Nazi? What is the downside? If liberal democracy is going to end in the United States, at least why not go down swinging?
This is scary shit and I feel sick. How long until people realize where we are headed and rise against it. I know we've started but it feels too slow.
Reality has a liberal bias
Goes hand in hand! 👍🏻
Liberals have a reality bias…
I think the majority minority theory is a ruse. I don’t think that it exists. I don’t think that people bump into it on a daily basis. I think it’s a total media creation. I think the sad reality is we’ve always been a bigoted country and a guy like Donald Trump as well as the modern Republican Party has created a permission structure to let these feelings out and we are just seeing increased expression of the hate that was living in the country already. Thoughts?
Conservative? What are they conserving? I'm just asking questions....
White supremacy.
How can that guy say he’s Catholic n wants an Aristocracy when Jesus gave each of us “free will”! Guy doesn’t even know the religion he claims to stand for!
There's a whole faction of young hyper-traditional Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who are really into far-right politics as well. You can bump into them online real easily. It may not be consistent with their religion or political reality, but it is growing slowly.
Quite frankly, what a bunch of dumb fucks.
There was definitely something off with the first kid. Absolutely creepy and terrifying. I'd agree that these kids have a completely different moral framing so they have no inkling that they lost the argument. Are they all homeschooled? Who is indoctrinating them in fascism? Or is this something else we can blame on the internet? I think there will be a backlash but it may be too late.
A lot of kids "ironically" pick this stuff up online. There's also multiple different groups radicalizing heavily. So many of those guys were straight up admitting that they didn't like the constitution or even the founding ideals of the country. They just want a white state that is their kind of religious or irreligious.
30 years of Fox propaganda, this is what you get.
Traditionally people are convinced that they don't want a fascist government being beaten decisively in a war. Maybe the Chinese can do that for us? I hope we find an alternative.
They are not kids. Calling them kids diminishes the danger.
I knew the situation was bad, but not THAT bad. That was beyond scary. As far as a remedy, I agree with Sarah - we need better public education and we need to support our teachers. Defunding and cutting the DOE and censoring classroom materials is going to contribute to this tenfold. In desperation to divert my attention, that is a really cool fighter plane model, JVL!
It's hard to laugh.
Like, it's ridiculous, and over the top, the way these people are...but I think they are true believers.
This scares the shit out of me.
It's the absolute confidence.
The certainty.
Lack of curiosity, or concern. All being delivered with an unbearable amount of smugness.
These guys beat up weird queers like me. Or if they don't, would if they had no consequences to fear. I hope this could heal in a decade, but damn....
Tim and JVL know about prof. Adrian Vermeule and Dr. Patrick Deneen?! I would LOVE to see the Bulwark do some in-depth work on their movement.
Deneen’s spoken at Viktor Orban's Danube Institute, The Heritage Foundation’s sister think tank in Hungary, along with the likes of propagandists Christopher Rufo, Michael Shellenberger, and Dr. Peter Boghossian.
Find the soul of the fascist rot we’re experiencing here in the U.S. and around the world and you’ll find those men staring back at you.
I for one love me a good Rod Dreher burn.
Ah… You are one with the Body. ;-)
Ok that was terrifying
Antidote to those fascist or fascist-curious youths: narratives of people who lived in Germany, Poland, France etc during the Nazi era.
The order to send them to Russia and China
Fascism, to them, is the soup of the day.
They're far too self-centered and lazy to do the hard work of implementing it.
And, if you were to ask them to define it, they'd be unable to.
Well, most adolescents are self-centered and certain they know more than anyone else.
I have more thoughts that may be a better way to address his beliefs. It’s important to not dismiss their beliefs but kindly challenge it. Medhi made a good start by asking what it would be like to live in an autocratic state. But, it is hard to respond reasonably to these youths’ statements given how appalling they are. Of course, adolescents like to shock. Once you give in to the shock, you’re toast.
I think it would be interesting to see how the youth who identified as Catholic and a 2nd amendment fan and thought an aristocratic governing system would be good react to the following:
You’ve selected a leader and the leader dies and their offspring inherits the title. This new ruler converts to another religion that commands the new leader to ban guns and require all members of the society convert to this new religion. The youth protests and there are consequences-forfeit private property and wealth or he lose his freedom or life.
When the response is, “That won’t happen,” there are tons of examples of such in history that can be illustrative.
You nailed it. It is all visceral to these little creeps. They wouldn’t know fascism, the constitution or
democracy if it hit them in their
needlepoint belts.
Very scary how racist these guys are.
It’s way more serious than their tone implies.
These scum basically represent the modern iteration of the Klan. This is nothing new to America. Racist ghouls and garbage degenerates like this have always existed in this country and have dominated whole political parties before. They have even had Presidents on their side before (Jackson and Wilson come to mind). This is a particularly crude, stupid, and ugly iteration of this mentality, because we live in a especially crude, stupid and ugly age. It's also because they have less real power now than they have ever had before.
That's not to say it isn't dangerous, scary, and enraging. It's all of the above. But it's also, sadly, a permanent fixture of this country, as American as bald eagles and apple pie.
That would be fascinating to have Mehdi Hassan on! Those guys were so giddy and cocksure, especially the first one. If they now think that, come to think of it, the Constitution’s not all that great after all, and there may’ve been just a few problems for some Jews in Nazi Germany, we’d better reinstate the Dept. of Education here if we ever get these lunatics out of office.
I know they all thought they won in their particular time Hasan. They are Pretty full of themselves and their convictions.
Can't have Mehdi on. Not after the last time.
That guy in the first clip was a big fan of Franco as a model for what he wanted. I'm kind of surprised that JVL and Tim weren't aware that Franco was a pretty popular with William F Buckley and especially Brent Bozell. A lot of post war conservatives did a lot of Nazi apologia as well.
I got the impression that first guy downed quite a few Red Bulls before hand.
One of the questions I've been asking myself for a while now is "does democracy actually work?". This exchange forced me to consider that perhaps it does not in the face of significant demographic shifts that threaten the once-assumed status of in-groups. Perhaps I'm making too much of this particular group of people, but it occurs to me that these folks are afraid. That fear threatens democracies across the world.
The far-right in Europe was super-charged by immigration fears, especially around Muslims and Islamic terrorism. The Brexit debate in Britain was fueled by fear of unchecked immigration from Eastern Europe and elsewhere that seemed to threaten the British way of life. Israel is grappling with what democracy means if it leads to a Jewish minority in a Jewish homeland.
Diversity can and should be a strength. But it is foolish to think there is no cost. The arguments made here by those debating Mr. Hasan were stupid and border on the insane. But, think it is the underlying argument we should be confronting. That argument is simply: We are white (and mostly men) who fear a future peopled and run by those not like ourselves. Call it racism and hate and fascism. It is all that. But it cannot be casually dismissed.
Democracy works, but it has a weakness: it tolerates fascism, which will end the democracy.
Democrats, both upper and lower case 'democrats' have a tendency to insta-forgive fascists, especially after they commit attrocities, and then are super-surprised when the fascists re-appear.
Yeah. That's why I question whether democracy works. If it tolerates fascism that ends in democracy's destruction, I would say that constitutes "not working".
I hear what you're saying, but that's why I chose the word "weakness".
Democracies DON'T have to tolerate fascism and still remain democracies. But that requires bravery, support for the law, and mostly the ability to violate class and racial solidarity.
I hear you, but is it a weakness or a flaw? If I understand you, you're saying that democracies can exist until they take this turn towards fascism. I guess the question is, given sufficient time, will any democracy turn towards fascism and then self-destruct. If so, then democracies will inevitably fail. That seems like a pretty big weakness. Maybe there is a way to prevent this fascist turn? I just don't know.
You said:
"I guess the question is, given sufficient time, will any democracy turn towards fascism and then self-destruct?"
That is a great question, and one I don't think we can answer yet. I'm thinking that all democracies have at least one fascist challenge, some fail in preventing their own destruction, some succeed.
The quote "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" comes to mind (apocryphally attributed to Jefferson).
John Philpot Curran said it better:
“The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime, and the punishment of his guilt.”
So, are democracies doomed? Maybe? If we let them fail because of our own decadence and cowardice.
A similar argument can be made about capitalism: will it always tend toward crony capitalism, monopolies, and the support of fascism to maximize profits?
You made this comment, which I agree with:
"We are white (and mostly men) who fear a future peopled and run by those not like ourselves"
Being white and male is the ONLY thing these mofos have going for them. I, too, am white and male. I'm also tall, straight, have an excellent (subsidized) education, and a more-than-passing knowledge of Christianity.
In short: I have every single privilege in the world. And none of these attributes is a personal virtue. Not one. They are ALL a chance of genetics.
So, while I benefit from them daily, I did nothing to "earn" them. I deserve no medal for them, and should not be lauded for them. I certainly should not be granted some sort of veto over the lives of others because of them.
And neither should these mofos.
Whom do you see as casually dismissing this? I’d be the first person to passionately agree that the response to this threat has been profoundly less powerful than it needs to be, not to mention, scattershot and lacking strategic and tactical skill on the part of leaders. Do you have some data that bears out casual dismissal? Granted, I live on the other side of the looking glass from Mehdi’s interview subjects in these clips, but in my sphere people are increasingly scared shitless to see the trump/maga normalization of hate, racism, and fascism.
OK, you made me think. That's good. I think most of the readers here certainly don't dismiss the dangers MAGA poses. I meant that the foolishness of the arguments employed by the debaters shouldn't distract us from the more profound underlying motivations.
When there is a massive right wing propaganda juggernaut spewing hate and disinformation daily for 30 years these ID appealing ideas take shape and support. This is where you get to with Tucker Carlson just asking questions….
Other countries may have their analogues to our right-wing media, so I take your point. Still, I don't think Carlson would have his following without the underlying demographic fears. My guess is that Carlson et al are more accelerant than cause. That's my take, anyway. Appreciate the reply.
This is inside all of us. The accelerant is the point. Dousing a small manageable camp fire with gasoline could easily burn down the entire forest…
Yes, the seeds are always there. I guess my contention is that not even Tucker Carlson and his ilk would survive in a democracy without those underlying demographic fears. I think that because these same fears and threats to democracies are global. Now, maybe I'm wrong and every democracy is threatened by their own version of Carlson. I suspect, though, that the fears come first and foremost. I would offer Japan as a counter-example. It is a demographically homogenous democracy largely unthreatened by immigration. I'm no Japanese expert, so maybe my example is off, but that's where I am for the moment.
It's been a lot longer than 30 years.
Charles Coughlin started in the late 1930s.
Yeah, but no one on regular TV news said it was OK. There will always be extremists. What’s different now is that they’ve been mainstreamed.
Charles Coughlin was VERY mainstream, in fact, he still holds the highest rating for any broadcast show.
I subscribe to the theory that the United States always needs an enemy, and if it doesn't have an enemy, it will create one.
In the 1930s, that "enemy" was Jews and immigrants.
In the 1940s, that was the Germans and Japanese (and immigrants).
In the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, it was Communists, hippies & black folks.
In the 1980s, pretty much just the commies.
In the 1990s, it was gay folks.
In the 2000s, and 2010s it was Muslims.
And now, it's transfolk and immigrants, and anyone left of Attila the Hun.
Each of those extremes were mainstreamed on regular TV.
So, this hatred has always been with us, it just changes clothes every decade or so.
Yeah, but now they are selling the clothes out of Costco in bulk.
Ha ha!
So true.
Just think: if I went on CNN right now, and made genocidal statements against Palestinians, would I suffer any career, personal or legal consequences?
Would CNN fire me?
I can tell you, as a mom of two very different neuro divergent young adults, that I don't get any vibes from him of that type.
Those children didn't listen to a word Mehdi said. They were only listening to their fellow crackers and high fiving each other for pwnig the libs.
Ideologues never do. They like the sound of their own voice. The phrase I'm thinking of that applies to such people: you never learn a thing by just talking. Only when you listen, do you learn.
Fellow Crackers 😂
They were far too busy listening to themselves to hear a word Mr. Hasan was saying.
I wish I didn’t know these ignoramuses existed ! and so boldly stupid! - it’s proof of a complete failure in their education and it’s shockingly sad for everyone.
Do you think they know history or took civics 101?
It’s more cultural than education.
Not a French view actually. If you live in France you are French.
France, one and indivisible.
Yes, but culturally they are still Europe. Thats why the refugee issue has undone governments on the continent. Do the French really want Algierian immigrants?
Is that the case? France is an outlier in so many other ways. Virtually no French immigration to the US. Refusal to adopt English as their second language (hard feelings with Britain from 1000 years of war?), complete rejection of their monarchy….
It generally an outdated view of Europe. I think based on the old German concept that you had to be German and it was difficult to become German. For many years this was the status of guest workers in Germany. But I think it has changed now.
I'm having a hard time laughing at this. It's probably because I'm not White.
These kids remind me of all of the hundreds of White racists full of rage that I have encountered in my life.
non-white, naturalized citizen, came to the US with a Green Card at age 6, am now 54yo, I'm scared to death to live in this country right now.
I'm at a similar age, naturalized too. I'm not sure if I can help you feel much better.
America is going to really suck for the next 25-50 years. Which means, the remainder of our lives. If you don't have a second passport, you should probably get one as fast as possible if you can. Among my friends, anyone who was able to, has already done so. I watch my Jewish friends with particular interest. I figure they have 2000 years of experience of figuring out when White Christians will lose their minds. All my Jewish friends have escape plans.
On the other hand, are we not just "reverting to the mean" (to borrow a phrase from economics)? In other words, America reached its peak from about 1965 (Civil Rights Act) through 2016 (Obama). It was great while it lasted, people were mostly happy, some people got wealthier than God, and we were creating a more perfect Union. But all good parties come to end, and we are reverting back to the normal state of this country: institutionalized racism and discrimination, unapologetic hate and bigotry, police violence and thuggery to impose White supremacy, and all that good old American stuff.
Being afraid and running away is exactly what the White supremacists want. But I don't have an alternative plan. I have not heard a plausible solution from anyone about the core problem: That about 2/3 (edit: 57%) of White Americans want to maintain White supremacy and will use Fascism to make sure that happens. Those kids that The Bulwark people laugh at, they are not a bunch of fringe nut cases. They express loudly what the majority whispers quietly, and they will pass on their twisted culture and values to their children for the next 50 years.
Tangentially related: A great way to piss off MAGA is to point out that Trump has never won an election against a man.
How does Pope Leo fit into top Jubilee boy ‘s frame work? I would love to hear more from Mr Hasan. All appear to have Trump’s no. 1 tenet down, never accept you are or could be wrong
Tim is right. Whiteness is malleable. Early 20th century Americans didn't consider either the Irish or Italians as white. The 1930 Census categorized Mexican Americans as white. Race is a social construct and is in now way biological. As more Latinos move here, it's very likely that in the future many of them will be considered white! I think that's also fairly likely for Asians.
This is what happens when you play chess with pigeons. They knock over the pieces, 💩 on the board, and strut around acting like they won.
and they shit besides
In a sense, they DID win! They won the game ... as they understand it.
I think Mehdi did great. I also think he was mostly talking about the Bill of Rights and his audience is not there. They didn't care about the constitution or didn't like it.
What about the Declaration of Independence? I think that's a good question for that audience. Abraham Lincoln and all.
And what is perhaps most terrifying is that I would imagine they don’t consider themselves “far right”, but centrist.
I just looked back at the show title: "Watch Mehdi humiliate ..." Yes, he did humiliate them. But do any of them know it?
To pick up on points that others have made but to shift the emphasis a bit, it’s more than a bit upsetting to have Tim and JVL (I’m a massive fan of both) try to link some of the comments made to neurodiversity. I’m autistic, as is my oldest child. For 30 years I’ve done research on business ethics and human rights. When my oldest child was 8, they carried around a book about child labor I had given them. There’s a kind of lazy argumentation that equates “weird” or “uncaring” or “being a jerk” with being neurodivergent, and it’s really unfortunate that it was on display in this podcast.
To make a couple of points:
1. People who are neurodivergent, are, well, diverse. Neurodivergence includes a variety of conditions, and there is a wide diversity of political opinions among neurodivergent people as well. Please, can we stop with the equating being weird or off-putting with being neurodivergent?
2. Second, and here I am focusing on autism, autistic people often have a finely tuned sense of injustice, so much so that it’s often discussed within the autistic community as a trait (although, of course, #notallaustistic people). See, for example, https://www.simplypsychology.org/autism-justice-sensitivity.html.
The work that I do in business and human rights makes more sense to me because I am autistic, not despite it.
I’m a big fan of the Bulwark, but that line of conversation was Not Great, Bob (iykyk).
Watching this tickled something in the back of my mind and it made me reread Hannah Arendt’s *preface* to The Origins of Totalitarianism (this edition doesn’t make it clear whether it’s the 1958 or 1966 one, but I think it’s the latter) and I literally got choked up.
She writes about how the world has become divided between those who think anything is possible with technology and those who know that, in their lives, virtually *nothing* is possible. She was talking about the people who lived behind the Iron Curtain. But I can’t help seeing the parallels, and I never imagined I’d apply them to Americans (and prospective Americans, and de facto Americans). That this group of “all-American” kids wants to accelerate that process is… just horrifying.
I was going to watch this but this format is SO MUCH BETTER.
I can say, with 100% certainty, that dudebro's family has not been here since the 1500s.
Yeah, I'm trying to picture a descendent of Hernando de Soto driving an F150 with truck nuts around Gainesville.
16th century explorers didn't even settle beyond a little conquerin' and extraction of goods for (mostly) Spain.
Humanity. Is. Doomed.
Tim a young contrarian must have been something 😎
"How to get them to stop wanting fascism?"
Well, they want fascism because they feed their minds a constant diet of lies and hate. Right wing media and social media guided by malicious algorithms are creating these beasts.
Can we do anything about that? We can speak truth and hang out with like-minded people on Substack and Bluesky, but we're not winning these people to our side. Quite the contrary: we give them more excuses to hate us.
Right wing propaganda is a hell of a drug.
Charles Coughlin had the largest media audience in US history.
Bummer we didn't have the dictator election in 2008.
Hate to say it, but 35% *is* a significant base of support. MAGAts and their temporary Xtian Natl'st allies are aiming for effective control of state and federal governments by depressing the voting power of the other 60+ pct of the population.
Regardless of number, these are *Lost Boys*---they will never surrender their position, never acknowledge reality. Let's hope they don't procreate.
We were those kids once-we, too, thought we knew it all when we actually knew shit.
Their views will change with age, when they've experienced the trials and tribulations of adulthood.
They'll learn, the hard way, that maybe fascism wasn't as cool as they thought it'd be.
I was a kid. I thought I knew a lot, when in fact, I knew very little. But I was never a fascist.
Point being is that they don't have a clue about what they're talking about.
Holy crap, I saw that video pop up on my feed this weekend and passed on it thinking it was just gonna be someone showing off how smart they are based on hand picked clips. I think I need to go watch the whole thing now. I’m with JVL on the not understanding the position some of them take. It just seems SO l… I dunno. I want to say poorly thought out, but it’s worse than just that. This is one of those things I think I may watch and then end up thinking “Ok, this HAS to be staged… right?” Good fuckin’ luck, America.
The woke backlash theory is bullshit. These people have always been here and have always had anti-immigrant ideology.
I grew up in the very unwoke ‘80s, when every character darker than a peanut was killed off in the first 5 minutes and rape was a punchline. Cultural shifts away from this didn’t create this bigotry.
Strong agree, Rick.
US fascism has been with us for a long time, since the 1930s under Charles Coughlin.
They bitch about immigrants taking their jobs, but those assholes are too lazy to learn a trade, to get up early in the morning, to lace up a pair of work boots, to put in an honest day's work.
They've lived a life of luxury while the hired help washed and folded their laced panties and cleaned their puke-filled toilets.
Very similar to 1920/30 German Nazi youth. They have a deep seated "Weltanschauung" (meaning world view) in the sense of a fundamental cognitive orientation that is beyond reason or life experience and very often is kept forever. In 1990s, as teenager, when debating one of my German grandfathers, the same views surfaced despite all his personal horrors (fighting in east front, Russian gulag). Still was defending the Nazi, the ideology, the whole shit and was only sorry for losing the war. It is all back. What an horror to watch.
That first idiot needs a "shakabuku" which is a swift spiritual kick to the head that alters your view of reality. If that doesn't work, then we move on to a baseball bat.
Jeffinator - he believes what he is doing IS "spiritual".
In fact, his spirituality is driving his fascism.
That dude's a clown who's always 'on'.
His life experience is TikTok.
This just leaves me so heartbroken and deflated for our future. What are their schools and families teaching them? This is so terrifying. I look forward to hearing you speak more on this because I have no suggestions. I am speechless 💔
Sorry not sorry, that first dude gives off school shooter vibes and why I don’t date period.
This podcast REALLY answered the question "why won't women date conservatives", doesn't it?
The abject imbecility coupled with the ignorant self-righteousness of these young men leaves me cold - and I’m sitting on the porch in AZ where it’s 100 degrees AND humid. What bothers me is the thought that there was a time when these young men’s forefathers (not mine- mine were escaping the famine propagated by the British Empire upon the Irish, who looked like them but were considered less valuable than SHEEP) entered this country when they were outnumbered by the indigenous population by multipliers of 100 to 1, or 1000 to 1 or more, and the manner in which they ‘equalized’ and subsequently outnumbered the indigenous population wasn’t through propagation of the white ‘race’ or entirely through immigration to the “new world”. it was through the elimination of the indigenous peoples. They just Killed Them. Something about those clips makes me think that these gentlemen would be more than fine with the same solution. What they don’t know, is that in their beloved military, the whites are a minority. What they don’t know is that if the carnage they so obviously desire actually occurs, they’ll End up being the targets of the military machine.
Timothy, I'm not arguing against the thrust of your statements above. But, I think you're wrong in saying that whites are a minority of the personnel in the active duty military. I checked a couple of sites and from what they depict, whites still make up a majority of personnel overall. A November 2023 report from the US Naval Institute, looking at the DoD demographic profile, states that over 2/3 of active duty personnel self-identify as white.
I find it surprising- but accept your comment without fact-checking. Perhaps my perception is colored by my own (ancient) time in the service at the tail end of the Vietnam era (active 1974-1980) and speaks only to my own (fossilized) experience where, as a Marine, and Caucasian, I was definitely in the minority….thanks Bruce ! I stand corrected!
Excellent points, Timothy