Hollywood’s Hopes in China Are Fading

Welcome back to the Bulwark Coast of Hollywood. My name is Sunny Bunch. I’m the culture editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be rejoined today by Eric Schwartz. Now we’ve had Eric, on the show before to talk about his book, red carpet, Hollywood, China, and the global battle for cultural supremacy.

It’s kind of about Hollywood making inroads into China and where that Everett has succeeded and faltered. And I I got him back on the show today because he got a really interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal, about frankly how terrible Hollywood is doing in China at the moment, declines across the board, softness everywhere. Eric, thanks for being back on the show.

Hey. Thank you. Always a pleasure.

So, alright. So let’s talk Chinese box office. What is go what are Hollywood studios looking at when they look at the, the, the tail of the box office tape in China right now?

There’s not much to look at. I I think what’s happening now is actually the culmination of many, many years. Of of movie going trends in China. I think you and I are very accustomed to a narrative where China was a place of almost like limitless revenue possibilities. They have one point four billion people, for the past twenty years or so, they’ve loved going to Hollywood films, and and the movies that do well here and some that don’t tend to do well there as well.

So so Marvel has raked in billions of dollars of tick in ticket sales, Avatar, and its sequel have been huge there. And that’s been the narrative for a long time, but but coming out of COVID, we saw that there’s really been a cleaving of of tastes when it comes to the Chinese box office where Chinese movie goers more than ever are preferring to see Chinese films when they go to the theater and not just, you know, turning away from Hollywood films, but outright rejecting them. And so We’ve had one example after another, whether it’s the new Indiana Jones movie or Elemental or the Little Mermaid, I guess, to pick on Disney here for a second, All three of the those movies have done dis dismally. And and and, you know, several years ago, a disappointing box office in China might be, you know, oh, it only made, you know, forty million dollars or so. A movie like Indiana Jones forty or sixty million dollars.

The new Indiana Jones has made four million dollars. In China. And so that means not even the expats are going. And and I think what it speaks to is is a couple things we can get into. One of which is that over the past twenty years, Chinese filmmakers have really looked to Hollywood for the model and the template of what kind of movies to make.

And as their output has gotten better and more sophisticated, shouldn’t come as much of a surprise that Chinese audiences are preferring to see their own movie stars in their own stories rather than just continuing to blindly accept Western imports.

Yeah. That’s an interesting point here. So, you know, I another, guy I’ve had on the show before, Chris Fenton. He wrote, a book called Feeding with Dragon. He is a he was a production exec for a while, in Hollywood and has some experience bringing stuff to China.

And what what he is has been saying to me for the last two years is they, you know, they were they taught themselves to fish and now they’re fishing. They have they’ve imported the the the talent and the know how. They’ve taught their their folks how to do it. Now they’re making their own stories, and that’s what their people want.

Absolutely. I mean, that was one thing that I was struck by when I worked on my book was just how far back that effort went. And and and and we’re talking now, you know, Hollywood movies have really only in earnest been flowing into China since nineteen ninety four. So this is a relatively new market by by Hollywood standards. Right?

And and really as early back as the early as the early two thousands, I found evidence of Chinese officials trying to trying to have a kind of technology transfer when it comes to the skills, the storytelling approaches, and and just the technical know how that goes into to making movies. And in some cases, they just outright hired Western talent to go over and teach them. And and I think also there was just a kind of natural osmosis that happened whereas exposure to Western entertainment deepened many filmmakers in trying to try to, you know, do what they could to to recreate that kind of that kind of story toward storytelling approach and and and we’ve seen this in a in a really fascinating parallel in a lot of other industries, right, whether it’s, you know, manufacturing or, in, airplane engines. Like, there’s there’s been a kind of transfer of know how and then a kind of are are running with the ball in in the Chinese US dynamic in in the past. It just so happens that it might take a little bit longer with something like storytelling.

Right? Like, how do you How do you transfer the elements of storytelling? It’s a little more complicated and esoteric than transferring the blueprints for airplane engine. Modeling. Mhmm.

But they’re definitely here. And I think I think the other thing that had to happen were was that Chinese audiences had to be kinda trained to go back to the movies and see Chinese films because a lot of the Chinese folks that I would talk to would say things, you know, like, that that for a long time, if they if they were born in the in the seventies or eighties, the movie theater was really just another kind of venue for propaganda. And it was a place you often went because the state owned enterprise where you worked was that you said on Friday afternoon we to go see this movie about the glories of the Chinese army or celebrate the anniversary of the PLA or something. And it was it was really just sort of a place for your vegetables, not necessarily for just kind of sheer entertainment. And and in the past twenty years or so, the Chinese, regime and and also its creative class have tried to introduce more entertaining elements in into the film.

So so when you go to a Chinese multiplex now, frankly, it looks more diverse in lineup than an American multiplex. It it’s very you know, they’re they they actually have never stopped putting romantic comedies in theaters or thrillers or, science fiction. I mean, it it whenever you look at the the lineup of the what’s what’s working at the Chinese box office right now, it really looks like I’m like the Hollywood of the nineteen eighties that is now romanticized by so many, right, where it’s every kind of movie is being put out often original stories and they’re all, you know, leading to audiences turning up in real numbers.

That’s really that’s a really interesting point. And I I hadn’t thought about precisely this way, the the way it it kind of mirrors what was going on in the United States in the nineteen eighties. And, I wonder how much of this so, you know, The the economics of Hollywood have changed, drastically since then, right, to, focus on home runs. You gotta we gotta make the billion dollar tent pole. That’s what we gotta make over and over again.

We’re gonna make five of those instead of, you know, thirty, all sorts of movies that that cost less. Mean, how much of this is just China, the the Chinese market being so inwardly focused that they can’t really make that outside of, you know, the the the very occasional, wool for you or whatever. They’re they’re not making billion dollar movies. They’re making smaller, you know, more focused internally movies.

Well, I would push back on that. I mean, they they aren’t making many billion dollar movies, but there the a hit in China is still making more money than just about any movie released in any other market. You know, you’re you’re right. Like, I think There hasn’t been a Chinese movie that’s that’s got done one point five billion dollars and and, you know, only five hundred million of that is coming from its home market. They they still have this this problem where their movies don’t travel and and something like ninety eight or ninety nine percent of a blockbuster gross in China tends to be coming from China.

It’s not like, audiences in France or Nigeria are are going to check it out. But it is such a huge market that it’s still a good business to be in. And and what’s interesting is it to the point about sort of the genre, diverse you know, some of them, the really successful Chinese films of the past several years, have been what what I’ve called popcorn propaganda, which are movies that are often if not produced by the state, then endorsed by the state, often very nationalistic in tone often very, you know, you know, going back to that well of of what kind of Chinese victories can we be looking at again and again and again. But rather than kind of having an eat your vegetables ideological approach, they are, you know, kind of like a there’s, like, a bit of a rambo stylization to them. And and it works on multiple levels because people actually wanna go see it, and the government likes the messaging that that it’s conveying.

And and then in in other cases, we have just gonna strictly entertainment In so far it’s every every movie in China, you know, is approved by the sensors before it’s released. So so every movie in China is a reflection in some way of of state priorities. But there was a a Chinese thriller that has made four hundred million dollars in China so far this year. I mean, horror movies do well in the US, but but cracking four hundred million dollars as a horror film or a thriller is is pretty hard to do. I think you just speak to the size of the market, But also that that it doesn’t seem like the kind of the consumer behavior of thinking that is not a theatrical type of a release that I’m only gonna reserve my theatrical movie going to the biggest most spectacular releases isn’t quite catching on in China to the degree that it has here in the US.

How much of this is a function of consumer behavior? I mean, I I don’t I don’t know the answer to this. Oh, it’s always a mistake to ask, ask a question you don’t know the answer to.

But how much of this is

a function of China having a less mature streaming market? Right? So there’s no Netflix in China. There’s no prime video. I know they have their own, like, ten cent has a streaming service, but but the but, you know, the the market there is is, I think, I get the sense, anyway, is, slightly less robust than, than certainly the theatrical market at this point.

Well, I’m not sure I’m not sure how, like, their streaming hours compare to to the US. I mean, I have always you’re right that they don’t have Netflix. I mean, the the list of countries that Netflix is not operating in right now is is very telling. It’s like there’s maybe less than ten fewer than ten and it’s like North Korea, Syria, and China. Like, I mean, it’s it’s it’s this glaring hole in their global domination.

And it’s because the Chinese regime has really been quite protectionist about its streaming services. And there are three services that kind of function as their their primary services, and and they’re collectively referred to as the bats because it’s Baidu Alibaba and Tencent who run the three main services there. And and look, I think they certainly are streaming quite a lot there. I I think that one thing that that is certainly happening is that the actual movie going I would say especially compared to the US is still a relatively new phenomenon in large parts of China. And if you look at the the screen per person, ratio, China is still under screened relative

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Mhmm.

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to the US. So that means there are still parts the country where heading to the movies is is not a particularly easy thing to do. And so I think there might be there might be sort of a novelty element there I also think we’re just we we just have to also keep in mind the simple math that they have, you know, more than three x the population. That that the US does. So a movie when it takes off there has a has a higher ceiling, than than it does here in in the US Now I think the other the other thing to keep in mind is because of the relationship between commercial enterprises and the state in China, you know,

there’s always been a a real government

support for movie going for several reasons. One is what we reference, which is, you know, it’s it’s a it’s a great venue for messaging. Overt or covertly. And then the other is that the model of the the Chinese multiplex is very is also very, like, 1980s America. Like, a lot of Chinese movie theaters and complexes are in malls, and sort of these anchor tenants of broader real estate developments.

And so there’s a real vested interest by the government to make sure that those ventures continue to see that foot traffic and can continue to see that spending. And so the government will do what it can to support that business and sort of keep that entire kind of enterprise afloat in a way that, you know, certainly, you know, the US the government stepped in to help, businesses during COVID to some degree. But, like, we’re seeing now after after theaters have reopened, in some cases, the Chinese government is offering theater specifically a kind of subsidy and and and a form of support to make sure that that that kind of movie going habit gets going again.

Mhmm. I mean, there is a real interesting disjunction. I mean, I’m looking at, your, your, story. There’s a there’s a chart here that just tracks box office, American, box office from American movies by year. And, you know, the high point is twenty nineteen.

And then twenty twenty obviously dipped for for fairly obvious reasons, twenty twenty, the COVID year, of course. But then twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, it doesn’t quite come back the same way. And again, you know, you see you see a similar kind of pattern in the United States except in the United States. It’s a pretty steady progression back upwards. What was there a did twenty twenties COVID lockdown cessation, etcetera, essentially break the habit of going to see American movies.

What is it was it a a a function of a a lack of product or, inability to go to the theaters. I’m just curious if you have a a sense of what the what the cause and effect here.

Yeah. I think in

in the same way that a lot of Americans fell out of the habit of going to see certain kinds of movies in theaters or movies at all in theaters, I think that that was one habit that was broken, during COVID, which was going to see American films specifically. And part of that was because you’re right during COVID, very few were coming out. But then after after twenty twenty, in twenty twenty one, in twenty twenty two, the Chinese government to the extreme frustration of Hollywood executives did not let in nearly as many American films as it typically does. And and in fact, it’s actually it seems like it was in violation of the treaty that kind of approved this distribution in in to begin with, there there is an agreement that the Chinese government is supposed to let in thirty four at least thirty four foreign films a year. Now that normally means, like, thirty three of them are American.

Right? Thirty two or thirty three are American. And and there was a time in twenty one and and in part in twenty two where a fraction of that number was being let in. And and this is where I think doing business with China for any sector can can prove to be so frustrating, which is that there was nothing the studios could do. I mean, they could complain.

They could, you know, raise it as an issue, but but there really wasn’t much they could do in in part, because they didn’t wanna make it worse. Right? You don’t wanna alienate the ministry of propaganda and and and further jeopardize approvals of your films going forward and and so on. They just had to sort of sit back and cross their fingers and hope that China would would start letting their movies in again. It seems as though part of the reason for that kind of temporary partial blackout was that it it gave it gave Chinese films a clean runway.

Right? And there was there was a lot less competition. It’s similar to the Netflix dynamic, right? Like, keep out the foreign product so that our our own domestic product and our domestic companies have, you know, free rein. And and I think that contributed to the to the habit issue.

I mean, for for instance, like, as a case study, you can look at, Marvel. Now Marvel really was hit really hard by this blackout. In fact, I think it it came to, like, something like six movies in the Marvel Studios series, which is as you know, like a very important kind of chronology were kept out of China starting with black widow back in the summer of twenty twenty. And so if you’re if you’ve I mean, it’s like anything. Right?

Like, you miss I mean, back whenever we watch shows week to week, if you missed a month, like, did you did you really pick it back up or or and so there’s gonna be kind of a natural sort of falling off of of of some fans in that respect. And then I think I I think that, you know, it’s just also interesting to see how some of Hollywood tried and true strategies today just went into all these problems in China. For instance, you know, I think Indiana Jones, which was a failure everywhere. Let’s be fair. You know, relies very heavily as a lot of these new reboots do on nostalgia.

Well, Chinese audiences aren’t very nostalgic for a character they barely know. There’s going to be some kind there’s gonna be a kind of lost in translation element there too.

Well, and and but beyond that though, I mean, look at the mission impossible series, which you highlight, in your story, like the the new mission impossible, dead reckoning, part one. Yeah. I get the whole thing in there.

Have we ever I’m sorry. Have we ever I mean, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but if we ever had a title with more, you know, kind of like grammatical grammatical. Yeah. I’m I’m thinking about those poor, those poor people have to put up the Marquise. You know, I’m like, I mean, where do they find all the colons and dashes they need these days?

Yeah. I I feel like that was a a pretty regular thing in the, star wars episode, Bulwark. Right. You know, Siri. But this is I I do think three colons and m dashes is a is a is a new record for one for one movie.

I the so this movie, you

know, comes out in TriNet. It’s doing what? About a third —

Yep.

— of the previous previous one. And, you know, that’s not a movie that’s relying on nostalgia necessarily, but it is a movie that’s relying on star power, right? Like, the Tom Cruise gets out there and he goes everywhere. He goes to every country and doing backflips on the red carpet, and people are real excited to see him. But is that is that sort of star power, American Western star power on the Wayne?

In China as well. In addition to, you know, people getting tired of, you know, Marvel stuff or whatever.

Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, in so far as you can kinda make proclamations about a country with one point four billion people. I I was talking to, a studio executive who was doing just that. And he said, that, it’s his belief that as relations between the US and China really frayed during those COVID years that a lot of Chinese movie goers really did ingest this kind of skepticism toward anything made in the USA. And and that especially, you know, in in smaller

cities or more rural

areas, there’s going to be a real reluctance to embrace American movies, as they once did because of those politics are just sort of a general kind of distaste for for the country. I think that’s part of it. I mean, like, it’s never any one thing. Right? But I think it’s that it’s that kind of years long lag of having a steady flow of American product.

I think I think you have to bring the politics into it. I think you have to bring the kinds of movies that America’s making. Into it and and also then and I’d say primarily the the sort of the new and improved competition that Chinese movies are offering.

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s, let’s think about what this actually means for Hollywood. Right? So if you can’t make two hundred, three hundred, four hundred million dollars on a movie, even with the the higher than usual cup that China keeps, from that from that picture, what does that do to budgets in America?

Like, what does what what are the studio execs looking at when they’re setting their, you know, profit and loss sheets. They’re like, okay. We gotta make x amount of money here. We gotta make x amount of money here. Mean, if you zero out China everywhere, which my understanding is that several studios have just started doing that.

What does that do to what you can greenline in terms of making a movie.

Yeah. That’s my understanding as well, which is that in these in these green light meetings where they project, how much they might expect make in the US and Canada, how much they might expect to make in a foreign market, and then how much they might expect to make in China, that they’ve just put a zero in the China column And and I think part of that is just like it’s just good office politics. Right? Like, if you if you if you tell your, accountants that you’re not expecting anything and then you get an extra, you know, twenty five million out of it. Like, it’s it’s kinda found money.

But it does it does lower the ceiling of what you can spend on the movie. Ultimately. And and I should say that the reason they’re putting a zero in the China column is not just because Chinese moviegoers aren’t showing up. It’s because they just they just can’t predict if they’re going to get in anymore or if some if some, you know, is there gonna be some is some trade wind going to blow and there’s going to be some dispute and and suddenly they’re they’re caught in the crosshairs. Right?

Like, so so that’s that’s kind of I think it’s the political instability and the the audience react that’s leading to that kind of zeroing out that you that you mentioned. So, yeah, I think I think budgets overall are coming down because We just have seen that audiences everywhere with just a few exceptions aren’t turning out as they as they once did. I think that I don’t think that it means that we’re in a world where there’s suddenly a long leash of free expression. I I I mean, I think one the other element of this is the the censorship that’s that’s required or the self censorship that’s required to make sure that any movie that you want to get into China does get into China. So not making a movie that you know, cast certain actors or broaches any any themes.

I don’t think that not planning on a Chinese box office grows means that studios aren’t still thinking about that. And I’ll explain why, which is that every studio the the five major studios are all part of much larger corporate parents and in the past, China has punished companies anywhere it can for political messaging it doesn’t agree with. So if Disney says, you know, let’s say Fox Fox would be more appropriate. So let’s say Fox says, you know, we don’t need to worry about China as Fox Office anymore. Let’s make a movie about Tiananmen Square.

Let’s make a big Oscar movie about Tiananmen Square. Well, that actually would ripple through the larger Walt Disney company. And and pretty soon Bob Eiger would have to be, you know, answering for that messaging. There the theme park that it runs there would be under under threat. The toys it sells all the other movies it wants to release in theaters.

So I don’t necessarily think that there is sometimes this narrative where well, if we’re kind of decoupling from the Chinese box office, maybe that will convince studios not to worry as much about falling in line with the sensors don’t buy that. I think it’s still going to be it’s still going to be a con a major consideration. Please. Yeah. Let’s I let

me jump in here, just very quickly and you could you what is the situation like with the theme parks in, in in China? Because I know this is a, you know, Disney has Disney has MBC universal’s building, a a theme park. What is or maybe has already opened? I I I’m

not sure if

it has opened. Yeah. I think it’s open. Yeah.

So so they so you’ve got

these you’ve got these corporations that aren’t just looking at box office dollars. They’re also looking at, like, what happens to this massive amount of money we have invested in building up actual structural locations that cannot be moved you know, if things go south with China.

Right. And and so I

think, you know, one thing the the main thing

to understand with the, like, the theme park. So Shanghai Disneyland is the is the biggest example of this. It was a five point five billion dollar investment. But, like, so many western, like all western ventures in China, Disney is not allowed to be a majority owner of it. There are Chinese companies that own, I think, around fifty five percent of it.

And Disney has a forty five percent minority share. Obviously, though huge reputational cost, if anything happens there. I mean, The best example I I I can remember of just that shows just how beholden these companies have to be to to the Chinese government was I think in twenty twenty one it was during China zero COVID policy restrictions And and there was a there was a day where there was a positive COVID test registered at Shanghai Disneyland. And the response from the government was to lock everyone inside the park and not let them leave until they tested negative. Now that is not the Disney way.

That is not the Disney experience. Right? And I’ll I’ll never forget doing a story on it and and being told by someone at Disney that to kinda let the time go by while everyone was standing in these long lines to get tested for COVID, They decided to put off the fireworks and and and allow them to see sort of watch a fireworks show while they stood in line. I thought, what a surreal experience that that must have been? But it shows you that, like, it’s the it’s called Shanghai Disneyland.

Everyone thinks it’s a Disney theme park, but it’s in China, so it’s going to be run by China. So so but but it’s but it’s a huge as you said, it’s a huge kind of, bargaining chip. Right? I mean, there are so many things that Chinese authorities can do to try to kind of, you know, apply pressure on on something if they if they, as I said, they don’t like the messaging.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s fast. I mean, I’m just trying to imagine what would happen if if China said, alright, Disney. You’re out.

We’re we’re tired of these, these these movies you’re making, you know, you made seven years in Tibet thirty years ago. We’re we’re done with you. And what the parks would actually look like. I mean, like, you know, would they would they have to rebrand it? Would they just tear it down?

I I don’t know. I it’s it’s it’s an interesting thing.

I don’t know. It’s always it’s I mean, there’s always a dance in China between, like, what whether they’re gonna prioritize the economics the economic equation or the political equation. The political equation usually wins, but I I I mean, not good. It wouldn’t be good for Chinese business if if Shanghai Disneyland ceases to exist or ceases to exist as a Disney park either. Right?

So so there’s always there’s a bit of a they’ve they’ve kind of got, like, mutually assured destruction or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let’s see. What else is going on in the world of China and the box office?

Well, I think one thing that was particularly interesting. And I I worked with several colleagues who are based in Asia on this story because I thought the what I really wanted this piece to include were, like, voices from Chinese moviegoers because I mean, like, I was seeing these returns, these, like, these openings that are just I mean, like, gross as you might expect out of, like, the Philippines or I mean, like, much, much smaller market coming out of coming out of China, which was at one point in history, the number one box office in the world. And and I think one thing that particularly interesting was the response to the little mermaid, which, the the live action remake of the little mermaid And and we talked to folks, and and it was interesting that the, you know, the casting on that that movie, and this kind of sort of color blind cast thing and and having, a black actress play aerial, the little mermaid, and so on. It had obviously inspired a lot of reaction everywhere. Positive, mostly I think, but also it had become a bit of a cause celeb in in conservative circles too.

And, and I think what was interesting was talking to when my colleagues talked to movie goers in the UK or in in China, they they received that casting as what they what they routinely referred to as political correctness, and they didn’t they didn’t want, to see it in part because of that. And it was interesting because it was, you know, that is that is casting that’s kind of like responding to a conversation happening here in the US. But a conversation that understandably, I think a lot of Chinese moviegoers might might not be privy to. And so to then see it received as this kind of like, political messaging. I mean, like, one of my colleagues was talking to a movie goer who said, you know, I don’t go to the movies to be, like, sort of, like, you know, caught ID ideology.

I go to be entertained, which is a lit a bit I would say a bit a bit ironic. It, you know, given the CCP’s history of of the movie theater and how it’s treated the movie theater. But, but no, I think it’s it it is an example of how we’ve we’ve seen like now as the as the movies reflect American culture in conversation more and more. Like, there being another kind of gap in in what appeals to to movie goers in China specifically.

Yeah. I mean, I’m just imagining somebody, being like I’m not going to see this new little mermaid movie because it’s too politically correct. I don’t wanna be indoctrinated. Instead, I’m gonna go see the battle at, like, changing, you know, that that’s that’s what I’m looking. No.

But it is interesting though. I mean, I’m I’m, you know, I am always hesitant to I’m always hesitant to make box office predictions or projections based on, you know, outrage, controversy, etcetera. I think a lot of stuff that we talk about is, unfortunately, very, very online, very, you know, kind of like the fifty loudest people on Twitter sound like a a million people, and that’s not necessarily the case. But it is it was interesting to read that part of the story because I it me it made me wonder, you know, how much of that is how much of that is native to China, an internal Chinese discussion versus a a conversation they’re picking up on here in the United States, if at all. I mean, it feels like China is probably having no real crossover with, like, politics, Twitter in the United States.

You know, I does that does that does that question make sense? Like, where where is it coming from? Is, I guess, the the the big question.

It’s a great question. And I mean, I I I to be honest, I don’t know. And I think but one thing I was struck by was, you know, when I would when I talked to my colleagues, they said the the phrase that a lot of people they were seeing, yes, online, but also talking to in person, it was political correctness, political correctness, political correctness, which which is interesting. I I actually thought I was thinking to myself. I wonder if the The charged topic of political correctness is just kind of a broader debate in China right now and they’re sort of slotting it into an internal conversation they’re having too.

Because it just was it I just was struck by the sort of how, how commonly used a phrase it was.

I mean, because that’s I mean, it could also just be a translation question, I guess. Right? Like, I mean, what does what does political correctness actually translate to in in China, in Chinese. I I don’t know. I mean, I again, it’s it’s a it’s it’s a really interesting topic because, again, that phrase, political correctness jumped out at me.

I was like, oh, that that sounds That sounds familiar. Where, you know, what is what is what is going on there? Interesting. Very interesting. Alright.

As you know, I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked. If you think there’s anything folks should know about, this story or anything else might be working.

It’s a good question. I wanted I mean, I wanted to make sure we hit

Little Mermaid because I do think that’s interesting. And I do think that there’s been a lot of, kind of speculation about why it’s not performing well and and very little, like, actual reporting. So that was that was one thing I wanted to hit, but kinda think here. Trying to think if there’s and there’s me you know what’s really interesting, Sonny. It’s like, I was looking at, like, basically, the summer calendar’s over.

Like, there’s not like, there’s nothing after really Barbie and Oppenheimer that I can think of off the top of my head. So I will say, like, I don’t I don’t see any films on the horizon that are going to buck this trend.

What what about the Meg? The Meg two.

Yeah. You’re right. Sorry. Yeah. That’s a cool.

That’s the whole part of my story too. Yeah. You’re right. You’re right. There’s there there is the Meg, which the Meg two, the trench which is which is kind of, you know, the exception that proves the rule, because it is it is the now a very rare thing in almost an artifact in Hollywood.

It’s a co production between the US and China, and it casts the movie cast Woo jing, who is one of China’s biggest action stars in a in a role opposite Jason Statham. And so There is a world where the Meg two if I had to predict today probably does better in China than it does in the US, and and I think it was it was probably green lit on that assumption as well. But as I said, That is that is really, a bit of an artifact because those kinds of movies, are very rarely made anymore. Those kinds of China play movies. And and the Meg too is, I’m I’m told at least, you know, if all if all goes according to plan, a franchise in the making that they’re hoping will sort of still be to that kind of Hollywood Chinese crossover.

But,

yeah.

But I think a lot of the pure the pure global plays that Hollywood has on the docket, the the Marvel movies, the Pixar releases, the movies that traditionally went over to China and made a killing, like, I I’d have to imagine that there are a lot of there’s a lot of sort of furious revising of projections inside these studio offices after the summer that they’ve had. And and the other thing the other thing I would add before we go is I think, you know, this was raised as a prospect in one conversation. And then it’s it’s stream, but it shows you the degree to which the narrative has turned in Hollywood, which is I was talking to one executive who said, when your Grosses out of China are so bargain basement low. I mean, sub ten million. That means that these studios are actually losing money by releasing movies in China.

After marketing expenses and the fact is you as you alluded to earlier, like, they only twenty five percent of the gross out of the market, they’re losing money. And so he raised the question of whether or not at some point studios decide it’s not even worth submitting certain titles because it’s it’s rather than at one point being found money or or something close to pure profit, it’s actually a money losing venture.

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I this is the thing I keep wondering is how much longer, it the the studios can can you know, focus on China or even treat it as a ancillary market, if it’s gonna be such a such a disaster area for them.

Right. Right.

But, anyway, Eric, thank you very much for being on the show. Again, title of your book, is the red car or red carpet spread carpet, Hollywood China and the global battle for cultural supremacy. Definitely, I I strongly recommend picking it up if you’re interested in this topic. It’s there’s a ton of information there. It is, it’s well worth your time.

And there’s lots of really interesting little tidbits about how the the the various entertainment companies kind of have, you know, invested in China and and and seen seen that pay off or not. But Eric, thank you for being on the

Always a pleasure. Thanks, Sunny.

My name is Sunny Bunch. I am the culture editor at the Bulwark, and we will be back next week with another we’ll see you guys then.

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