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SPEAKER 2
I'm Tim Miller of The Bulwark. You know, if you're here, I've got some of my colleagues coming on with me. We have some good news on a Friday night, and that's why we're here with you live. I guess we're going to call it a hostage swap, not really a prisoner swap. There's a hostage swap between
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uh, El Salvador and Venezuela. Uh, and I guess the United States though, uh, the United States trying to pretend like they're not the part of it, at least for now, uh, I'm sure they'll try to take credit, uh, at some point, but, uh, essentially the swamp was Venezuela had about 10 us citizens, um, detained in the country.
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Um, and in exchange for that, uh, El Salvador has sent to Venezuela, uh, the men that they had, uh, been holding on behalf of the US government. and the good news is that includes andre hernandez romero the makeup artist that we

Andry Released To Venezuela From El Salvador

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Tim Miller and Sam Stein go live to discuss breaking news: After 125 days detained in a notorious El Salvador prison, Venezuelan asylum seeker Andry José Hernández Romero and other detainees were released as a part of a large-scale prisoner swap between the US and Venezuela.

They're joined by Andry's lawyer Lindsay Toczylowski from the Immigrant Defenders Law Center and Todd Schulte, president of FWD.us, to break down the details, the human cost, and what's next.

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To learn more about Andry, watch Tim and Lindsey’s chat during our Free Andry live show. To support Andry and learn more, visit: https://www.freeandry.org/

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Discussion about this video

User's avatar
Marta Layton's avatar

Todd made a comment about 30:00 in, about how there's no humane way our government can interact with immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants, without some sort of path to citizenship. I'd argue what we really need is legal status - green cards would work, if we also recognized civil rights, free speech, etc. with that status, which is also obviously under assault. But what really struck me was how incentivized certain people are to having people stuck on the margins.

I'm talking about labor costs.

Because if there's one thing American history shows us, it's that American business is addicted to, it's cheap labor. Slavery and sharecropping, cheap immigrant labor, now outsourcing and importing from countries where they pay less. In a sane world we'd give enough green cards to match our labor needs, prioritizing people already here and with no criminal record, something like that. The problem is you either have to pay them what you'd pay Americans or be okay with massive wage inequality that's got a heavy racial component. Maybe not intentionally but definitely as a foreseeable unavoidable consequence. And does anyone really think most Americans would support the president who shot their grocery bill through the roof when the guy picking their strawberries starts earning minimum wage.

I don't know the answer. The current "situation" (I'll be generous) sure isn't it. But there's this massive injustice at the heart of what's driving our dysfunctional set-up that we've all sort of just built our lives around. At this point it's almost lode-bearing. Actually, nix that: it *is* lode-bearing. And that's -- again being generous with my language -- "upsetting."

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Millie Rey's avatar

Great question Sam! I share your skepticism. Don’t forget that they built Alligator Alcatraz. Now they won’t have to send as many people to CECOT, but they are still sending people to other countries so they’re still doing bad stuff

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Marta Layton's avatar

The one good thing -- and this is one heck of a reach -- is I think the real purpose of CECOT was to get people used to the government doing that to people. Once a toehold was gained the thought process becomes harder to resist. Us resisting it at the beginning makes it harder for that way of thinking to grab hold. Though we have to keep fighting against it. So, yes, they're doing Sudan and Florida; but I think people are more primed to think those other places aren't okay, either. And that matters.

Well, some of us. A depressing number of us have much less space to say we don't know what's happening and are still not bothered by it. I'm related to a fair few of them, and I have to make sense of the people I know and love being okay with this mess. That's the kind of reality that keeps me up at night.

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Shannon Smith's avatar

It is a sad state of affairs when you can say that these political prisoners are probably safer in Venezuela than the US. At least he is alive and can be with his family. I hope Andry remains safe.

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Katie Beyrer's avatar

Man, my tears are flowing right now. This is great news, but then again, it should never have happened. Loads of prayers for him and the others.

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Marta Layton's avatar

Right there with you. It's so messed up.

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Peabody Jones's avatar

Tim and Sam, is there any update on how the releasees are being treated by the Venezuelan government?

on a different subject, here is some outstanding reporting on Trump's Everglades interment camp:

https://www.wusf.org/courts-law/2025-07-18/jacksonville-company-lands-78-million-contract-services-alligator-alcatraz?utm_source=chatgpt.com

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Meredith McLaughlin's avatar

My continued prayers were answered.Andrei finally released from the concentration prison in El Salvador...and others. Hopeful he will be safe until returned to us in America. And as you said...this swap of human souls was sickening. I cannot imagine what torture these men were subjected to.

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Sandra Trimble's avatar

Does the lying ever stop from the felon Trump regime?

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Owlette's avatar

No it is their oxygen, Tr and his followers live off lies.

If they stop lying, 'maga' collapses.

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Linda P.'s avatar

I love LIndsey too. Thank you. I'm signed up.

Thank you. Tim and Sam for this informative and heartfelt and realistic discussion. And for all the work for Andry and all the souls being swept up, used, abused, and terrorized.

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Linda P.'s avatar

First proof of life!

Effin' depraved.

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Judith Hofeditz's avatar

Thank you for this update, a glimmer of good news in the ongoing abuse of human rights by ICE. Thanks Tim for championing this particular person, who has become so symbolic of the innocents caught up in Miller’s cruel campaign.

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Jenn Ris's avatar

Yessssss!!! Thank God he is out of CECOT

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Larry's avatar

Great news. Hope there is followup. Is he being detained in Venezuela or released? Has he been seen or heard from since returning to Venezuela?

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Donna Gaudette's avatar

Thank you for bringing this news. My heart aches for all of the nearly 60,000 people who have been arrested and so abused to date. This includes many little children. Bless you and all who work to help fix this horrible tragedy.

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Laura Haule's avatar

They look thin. Now we need to get the prisoners in the Everglades out of that terrible place.

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Christina Ronnberg's avatar

Great news!!!

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David Zimmerman's avatar

immdef.org = Immigration Defense Law Center

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jane's avatar

Thank you, Tim. Mixed emotions here. Happy they're "free" and sad that Andre is back to square one after doing everything legally to come to the U.S.

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Q.B. Bingham's avatar

Seeing the ten Americans released was good. But sadly, knowing that Andry and the other Venezuelan prisoners will face unspeakable harm in the nation they fled breaks my heart into pieces.

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Bonnie's avatar

Please try to keep following this story as much as possible and keep us updated. Somehow, someway this regime has to be held accountable for these kidnappings and illegal activities.

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Katinka's avatar

It’s maddening to me that the MSM, including overseas, print media is 95% focused on the 10 Americans that were freed, just a mention, if that of Andry and the other men, many of whom just made the mistake of thinking that an appointment with CBP would possibly lead to a chance to stay legally in the US.

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Linda Hilliard's avatar

Thank you Tim, Sam and the rest of the Bulwark for all you have done and continue to do to keep this story alive. Keep up the good work.

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SusanB Graham's avatar

So, the USA outlawed the cash-selling of human-beings, at the end of the Civil War… but, they have brought back a bartering-exchange of humans, in its place. Let’s be honest. Not that much different from grabbing humans off the African Coast, and holding them until a good selling-price is offered, is it ? The POTUS has declared a class of people, who can be treated as Property, by the State.

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Hey Mama Warrior's avatar

Tim, so happy that he is out of CECOT and alive. Sad that he isn’t somewhere that he can live a full and free life. The USA is less because he isn’t here, and guilty of a huge crime for allowing any of this. If there is a place to donate to get him to a country that will allow him to thrive, please post it. On judgement day, I firmly believe anyone involved in this will feel the results of this travesty.

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Emma's avatar

Extremely relieved he is alive. But the shameless cruelty of the current US govt representing all of us is horrific. They appear emaciated and Andry's eyes, to the extent you can see them, say a lot.

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Kate's avatar

It is uncertain what fate awaits Andre and others who once fled Venezuela but, I for one hope that country is outraged by how these men were treated as fellow Venezuelans. Wishful thinking of me perhaps.

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Beverly Meredith's avatar

Thank you, Bulwark, for keeping our attention focused on this.

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ME's avatar
Jul 19Edited

I thought Trump was against legal permanent residents? Are these 5 White ones? Why would Trump 2.0 do a prisoner swap to get LPRs back to the US? Half of the 10 exchanged were LPRs!

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Katinka's avatar

I had the same thought.

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ME's avatar

Some photos here, wasn't able to find which were LPRs. Some are ethnics. Surely Trump 2.0 will use them for something? Like they used Adams?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/prisoner-swap-us-venezuela-el-salvador/

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ME's avatar

Thank you for reporting on this and keeping it on our radar.

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Shuppie's avatar

Thank goodness he’s out of the El Salvador concentration camp, but I worry about his fate in Venezuela. Not exactly known for their civil liberties and human rights.

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Thom's avatar

Wonderful news! Thank you, Tim, for staying on this issue for the past four months.

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Zehra's avatar

This is going to be a long-term struggle for the "soul of America" (I think Biden made many mistakes, but he got that right.) Americans don't want this government, and I have faith that if they are aware of the actions of this administration, they will vote them out.

What keeps me up at night is that for those who are undocumented, their communities, and anyone who looks Hispanic these next 2.5 years will be hell because they ARE being hunted by our government. We can't forget that the BBB has over $150 billion for immigration enforcement, and I fear that the last 6 months will probably look mild when compared to the next few years in the level of cruelty and brutality. The money will create a larger federal law enforcement agency that can legally operate with the homeland and given this administration will care little for procedures, laws or court rulings. The direct control by Trump administration and the lack of accountability... it will be very very bad.

Saw an article just today in CNN about a U.S. citizen and Army veteran who was detained by ICE for three days with no explanation, no lawyer, and no contact with his family. I’ve attached the article below. It's a stark reminder that abuses in our immigration system can affect anyone—citizens, legal immigrants, undocumented individuals alike. These actions don’t just violate moral standards—they endanger our entire nation's safety and civil liberties.

CNN link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/19/us/california-immigration-raid-george-retes

Full Article Text: https://share.evernote.com/note/c0299cc3-e385-45d4-bf2e-8c93e145c4bd

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Zehra's avatar

This recent release of Venezuelan migrants held in El Salvador’s CECOT prison is bittersweet. It’s a relief these people are no longer unjustly detained. But it’s hard to see real victory when their freedom came only through a political prisoner swap—hard not to see parallels between this and how Maduro’s regime has used Americans hostages.

And more troubling is how the release created another end run around U.S. court orders that instructed the government to facilitate the return of some of these Venezuelans. That undermines the very idea that this is a nation of laws. The same unchecked government actions can easily reach citizens, legal residents, anyone—none of us are exempt. When policies are driven by cruelty and disregard for due process, everyone’s rights are at risk.

At the same time, this and other instances show that public pressure and persistent journalism CAN lead to change, however incremental, and that makes places like the Bulwark so important. Raising awareness isn’t just about informing people—it’s about reminding us of who we are and who we should strive to be. When credible information reaches people, it can make a difference—just as we’ve seen when public outcry has pushed the Trump administration to constrain and sometimes even course on their policies. And that matters.

We just can't be complacent; this is a long-term struggle that we've got to keep going on.

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Claudia Volgger's avatar

Guys. This is NOT good news. The Venezoelan gouvernement is known to retaliate against people who sought asylum in third states. People were interrogated by the Secret Police, tortured, imprisoned, in some cases disappeared, especially if they made the news in any way; a lot of former refugees told AI and other NGOs that they live in hiding because the regime persecutes them as traitors.

This is why the US could not send them back directly - because of the international non-refoulment-clause which you are bound by, being amongst the initiators of humanitarian law, in better times.

If this practise of devaluating the non-refoulment-clause via a short stop in a third country goes ahead there will not be any meaningful right of asylum. We will be back to where we were in the 1930s, when so many european jews were trapped because nobody would accept them into their countries

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Joy G's avatar

Tim your tears are lovely and absolutely nothing to apologize for.

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Patricia E. Smith's avatar

Great that Andry and others have been released. This entire episode is disgusting and shameful part of our country's history now. Do you think that this is an attempt to deflect from Epstein? Or under the cover of Epstein?

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Elizabeth T.'s avatar

Thank you for your advocacy for these people, Tim!

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Dale Brewster's avatar

As an afterthought you mention that 10 AMERICAN CITIZENS have been released from Maduro regime. Does anyone at the Bulwark know their names? How long they were held? Interview the families? Go to Venezuela to witness the conditions of the prisons? Raise funds for legal defense? Write one goddamn article about them? No. Because you care more about illegals than our own people.

State Department should be congratulated

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Melody Pugh's avatar

I am also wondering who those Americans and LPRs are, but come on, man. It’s possible to do two things at once. In this case, the two things are: 1) wait for news about who these people are. I’m sure we’ll find out. And 2) talk about the crime our government committed against all of us by paying our taxpayer money to send these men to a gulag without due process.

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Kurk Dorsey's avatar

The difference is that our government might actually have been doing the right thing in trying to get the 5 US citizens and 5 LPRs back. It was doing the wrong thing, rather obviously, to the people it sent to El Salvador. And then our government lied repeatedly about it. And one more thing, it sent people back to VZ who fled the country because they feared persecution. You can congratulate the State Department, but I see a bad and immoral deal.

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Phil Pesek's avatar

Instead the State Department is being recklessly gutted and vandalized by DOGE.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

My dogs better than your dog, my dog's better than yours. Trump is sending people to a Death Camp in El Salvador for misdemeanors without Due Process. Blow me Bozo, lets deal with our Fascist first then we'll worry about VZ, North Korea and Russia. OK?

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Eric Fredericks's avatar

Interrupting the guest again, Sam!

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Patricia  Moretti's avatar

Thank you Tim! I have been waiting to hear from you. Prayers that Andry and the other men released to Venezuela will remain save and find peace now that they are free of that hell hole!

Our government is still responsible for this travesty and injustice. One point of curiosity… what happens to the money that the US was paying El Salvador to house these men? Do we get a refund or is it just for El Salvador to keep?

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Janis Pearson's avatar

I’m so glad to hear Andry is out of cecot. I pray he remains safe. Tim, thx for following this young man’s story.

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Jennifer's avatar

Oh I just cried watching this and to see the photo of Andry--I so often thought of him and was so worried about whether he was dead or not, and to see him alive is a beautiful thing!

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Janis Pearson's avatar

I completely agree. I knew he didn’t belong there. It made me sick.

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A Sharp's avatar

I appreciate your tender feelings for Andry and the others who have been through this.

I hope to see this type of compassion for Epstein's victims. Please consider inviting someone who understands the impacts of sex trafficking when you cover it.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

I’m so relieved that he is alive and appears physically healthy, but I am very concerned for his safety and wellbeing in Venezuela. He fled from there for a reason. I don’t know if it’s even possible for him to get the kind of support and mental health care he will need to recover from what he has been through. He probably has enough to deal with as it is without having to face additional persecution.

I know nothing about the process of seeking asylum in Canada but surely it has to be more humane than our process. I don’t think he should come back here, but I hope another country will accept this gentle, creative soul. Our loss, their gain.

Thank you, Tim, for keeping Andry’s story at the forefront.

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Judy B's avatar

I have to thank Sam & Tim for their unremitting focus on these men and Lindsay Toczylowski for her legal strength and her support of families.

I can pray that they will land on a path towards safety & being reunited with those they love & who love them. We atill cannot stop working for them nor the thousands of others being treated so horrifically by this administration.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Well, Tim, the budget they gave ICE is really intended to deport every person in the U.S.

And 100% of it is a waste of money. It helps the U.S. in not a single way.

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Martha A.'s avatar

So grateful.Thank you for genuinely reporting on this. I could cry.

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Robin Held's avatar

This is great news! I was certain that Andry was dead! But for the millionth time I will say we are a fucking disgusting country and I am fucking embarrassed to be an American! The immigration attorneys that are dealing with this unconstitutional bullshit are heroes and should be recognized as such! Thanks for this news guys, it made my Friday night!

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Ann P's avatar

If I could have one wish granted right now, it would be for Stephen Miller to get sent to CECOT and never be seen again (and for him to receive the full Monty while he’s in there).

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Sara Smith's avatar

What a relief that Andry has survived the ordeal to which our country subjected him. What a shame that he is now back in the country from which he fled feared persecution. Bittersweet, as Sam said.

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Kathy Austin, Texas's avatar

Glad Andry is out of CECOT. But what an outrage he and the other Venezuelans was forced back there in a prisoner swap.

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Jill Neumann's avatar

Emotional!! Happy!! Outraged!!

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Ann P's avatar

The NYT said we’ve been negotiating this swap with Venezuela since mid-May.

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Kris O's avatar

Just asking questions…. Did we kidnap the Venezuelans in order to get the “Americans” back?

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Kentuckistan's avatar

ahh..nope, we rounding up every single Venezuelan we can find and interning them and plan on returning them somewhere else under the Enemy Aliens Act of 1798.

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Geraldine Moyle's avatar

But, Tim, bless you, "not out of the woods yet" hardly acknowledges the FACT that Andrey is now returned to *the very country he fled* because of his sexuality & his political views. So every effort he made to get *here* is negated, & there is, as yet, NO indication that he isn't out of the frying pan but back into the effing fire. In short, he's not FREE.

9:26 PST

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Shannon Pritchard's avatar

I'm sooo happy that this has happened! But, and you know there's always a but, I think this is yet another distraction from Epstein. Like why now for this release? All of a sudden they realize they have the authority to remove people from prisons we're paying for? It's absolutely great on one level, but let's not lose sight of the bigger issue.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

It's nice they are alive, but there's some reason they were fleeing Venezuela. So, out of the frying pan, into what?

The coming Democratic administration should just give all these people automatic U.S. residence and let them go through the citizenship process.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

agreed, they should be fast tracked through the citizenship process if they are interested in doing so. I’m not sure how I’d feel in their shoes though. I think it might be hard to feel safe in America ever again. What if the whims of a few voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan result in a Trump 2.0 again one day and he or she denaturalizes them? We are not to be trusted.

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Tiff's avatar

He looked traumatized exiting the plane

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Ruthanne Roussel's avatar

I’ll be styling my Free Andry tee in pink with white letters tomorrow. If anyone asks I’ll explain that thankfully he’s alive but we kicked a gay makeup artist back to the regime he dragged his ass out of to come to America. The America he set out for is still here but only if we uphold it even when inconvenient and big bummer.

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Laura Bevan's avatar

The minute I heard the news I immediately rushed to the Bulwark knowing Tim would have the best info on the Venezuelans, especially Andry. I have been so worried he would not survive the hellhole we put him in. Thank you Tim and Sam for taking your time on Friday night to update us, and to your guests Todd and Lindsay for all the hard work they have done and will continue to do. Andry and the others may be out of that torture prison, but they still don’t have justice!

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James Woodruff's avatar

I’m glad you make sure to give the credit to the lawyers, but your passion and advocacy makes me proud to be a Bulwark supporter.

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Rio's avatar

Thank you for covering this story in such detail. I really appreciate your dedication.

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Robert J Danolfo's avatar

Thanks for the reporting gentlemen. The statement from Lindsay Toczylowski was impeccable. She, and many others like her, are on the front lines in the fight against this unlawful administration. They should be held in the highest regard.

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OJVV's avatar

Damn...this plays to Good JVL...

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Lois W. Halbert's avatar

Yes we are grateful to the Bulwark.

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Lois W. Halbert's avatar

Why did we allow this?

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Lois W. Halbert's avatar

I wish them all well and reunited with their families.

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Lois W. Halbert's avatar

We need to fix the GD Immigration System. Why should it take 10 years to get asylum?

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OJVV's avatar

Because we elect weak people over and over.

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MildredPrice's avatar

Thank you so much, Tim, Sam and Lindsay for this incredible report. Praying that attention to Andry and his fellow travelers will make it impossible to disappear these men. They have suffered in 4 months, more than most people are subjected to in a lifetime! Rage on our parts is appropriate and must continue to burn white hot.

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Margaret Fisher SF Bay Area's avatar

These people: Stephen Miller, Pam Bondi, Kristi Noems, DJT and all the complicit republicans, are pure evil. They know about the suffering they are causing. Causing suffering to hardworking non-criminal immigrants. Creating fear. They. Do. Not. Care. Because they have become monsters, by their actions.

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Kevin's avatar

I hope he hugs his mother and that he eventually gets a billion dollars for what we did to him.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

Straight from Trump’s bank account.

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Carole Langston's avatar

ICE-STAPO

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Kathy's avatar

I cried when this went live... I'm a grandmother and I was so worried about Andry... about all of them, but his touched my heart in a different way...

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Douglas Paul Truhlar's avatar

This means a lot, l’m so pleased but I will be patient.

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Carole Langston's avatar

Aligator Alcatraz. Hurricane season is coming! It's a tent prison!

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Linda Williams's avatar

Thanks for bird dogging this issue!!!

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Robin's avatar

Thank you Tim for bringing attention to this. Im sure the pressure you brought and attention helped Andres' case. Tonight you are my hero. You Bullwark folks fought the good fight. Praying for these men 🙏 ❤️

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Michele's avatar

Was this done to change the subject from the Epstein/trump connection files?

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OJVV's avatar

Prolly. Take the wins, bury them in their weaknesses.

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Chuck Aurora's avatar

I wondered the same thing. But then, flood the zone has always been their approach. Find something to cause more liberal tears.

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

We'll take the small win. We have to keep pushing back. We all know there are many fights ongoing and many to have, but we need to take a small win and hope for the best for these men and try to help them if we can.

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Michele's avatar

Can we get the death toll in CECOT and the death toll in the Everglades Concentration camp? My guess is the Everglades has more. Relieved these men are released. Shame on the entire Republican administration. May THEY all rot in hell

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Chuck Aurora's avatar

I doubt any prisoners are being killed in Alligator Auschwitz. But then, who knows? And would we know, if there were some "escape attempts"?

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Kathy's avatar

There have been 12 deaths in ICE custody since this started... but I don't think any - yet - at Alligator Auschwitz

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Nora Connors's avatar

Thank you a million times for giving visibility, and compassion, to this issue, and to these victims. And, to the hideous and evil work that Trump and his administration continue to do.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

Trump covers his tracks and buries this news on a Friday night.

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

He's predictable. So many things on weekends and in the middle of the night.

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Jeff Falkner's avatar

These men spent 125 days in prison. Meanwhile, the DOJ has recommended one of the detectives who took part in the murder of Breonna Taylor serve one day. Jesus Fucking Christ.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

it's good that they're alive

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

Oh wow! I was so worried he would not survive in CECOT. This is such good news!

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Sass-writer's avatar

You think that is good news? He fled & was seeking asylum from Venezuela. He is in grave danger isn’t he?

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

I am happy he is alive. I am worried about him being in Venezuela. I fully expected he would never be seen alive again. My immediate reaction 1 minute into this was one of great relief that his story is not already over.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

It’s good news that he is alive and out of CECOT. No one is under any illusions that it is good news that he’s back in Venezuela.

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ErrorError
0:37
Um, and in exchange for that, uh, El Salvador has sent to Venezuela, uh, the men that they had, uh, been holding on behalf of the US government. and the good news is that includes andre hernandez romero the makeup artist that we