The gang got together to watch the first presidential debate of 2024 and afterwards gave their impressions on the nights proceedings.
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Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.
Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.
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I have a serious question that I’ve been wondering since before the debate. Given Trump and his supporters response to the last election, I remember hearing that people believed the big lie because “who could have voted for such an old guy who is ruining the country?” So even before the debate I was thinking most of the country doesn’t want this guy as nominee so how is the fallout not going to be WAY worse this time if Biden wins. Then the debate happened and I thought oh thank god we can get someone new in there and then when we win it won’t seem like this person who no one wanted as nominee “stole the election.” Fast forward to now and I am just VERY worried about what if we put Biden forward and somehow based on apathy, the fact that trumps base isn’t THAT large, and whatever shit comes out about JD Vance October surprise etc Biden does still win…. No one on the right is going to accept that result and it will get VERY violent. I’m dying for some thoughts on this.
I, I can't listen to him now......
Does anyone wonder if maybe Biden got dosed with something before the debate? He seemed to come around pretty fast after. I'm sure there are two or three hour drugs that render you incoherent and then wear off. Women are on guard about this type of thing all the time
He had a cold. Some cold meds affect people that way. I take anti-histamines all the time. Others take one and fall asleep. Some of the newer over-the-counter meds are as strong as prescription meds. Combine that with facing a raving lunatic, and I suspect most people wouldn't do well. People also forget that several other politicians including Reagan, Obama did badly in their first debates and went on. The fact that he got stronger as it went on, and those who watched to the end said he won makes me think the meds were wearing off. BTW, if you read the transcript, there were few places where he blew it.
How does one debate against a constant barrage of lies, each one more absurd than could be imagined in debate prep? How do you even prepare for that? And if you are rebutting each lie, how do you have time to highlight your own achievements?
Throw in a speech impediment where you have to think how the next word will sound, and 2 minutes is barely time to figure which thread of lies and gibberish you can respond to.
I tried so hard to find the bulwark debate broadcast and could never find it! Wahhh! Clicking on the link didn’t get me there, but instead, as I recall, to some pre-broadcast analysis. What did I do wrong?!
Concerning the documents case which was open and shut, I think it has been given the last rites.
Way too much ragging on CNN here. Everybody knew what the rules were, and any expectation that CNN was going to fact check or challenge Trump in any way after weeks of Trump broadcasting that CNN and Biden were allied against him is nonsensical, especially given CNN's Trump-related screw-ups of the past (remember the Town Hall fiasco?) and CNN's desperate attempt to remain relevant in an utterly Balkanized media environment. Biden will likely stay in all the way to the bitter end, despite last night, or (less likely) may call it a day. But it was on Biden and his team to take the fight to Trump last night, and for the most part he and they failed.
Biden was given numerous opportunities to hammer Trump and went blank every time. That's not CNN's fault.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama need to go to him and Jill and tell him to decline the nomination. If he was the only one who could beat Trump in 2020 (which I think he was), I think he's the only one who can lose to him in 2024 and if his whole reason for running is that he's the only Democrat that can beat Trump, he needs to go. Will an open convention be chaotic? Yes. But it will likely end with one of the governors on the bench having the nomination who will have a far better chance of beating Trump which is the ultimate goal.
I totally agree with Bill on there needs to be a discussion in the white house now. To those (like the person who will cancel their Bulwark subscription) you are whistling past grave yard here. I don't like to be disagreeable with fellow Bulwarkers,but so be it.
I didn't watch it Thursday night; I turned off my phone around 8:30. I read about it Friday morning, watched a couple hours of Morning Joe then watched the Bulwark post-debate show. The debate was a total shit show. Biden finally did the thing that we all feared he would eventually do. I'd been lulled into a warm fuzzy place by Biden stepping up on and exceeding low expectations on previous occasions. This time he brought to mind my grandmother who exhibited escalating frailty over the last few years of her life. This time, "they" won't need to edit out the paratrooper out of the video clip.
In closing, I'm stealing two JVL line (thanks JVL, and I'm looking forward to today's Secret Pod).
1) It's not great, Bob.
2) Good luck America.
I just looked at the first few minutes here. Mona's dour face says it all. Keep her from the ledge JVL! If Bill is depressed he sure has a good poker face to hide it!
Mona did sum it up nicely as she took her well deserved exit.
Question: The person in the chat who said they were discontinuing their Bulwark subscription-did they say the basis on which they made the decision right after the debate ended?
This was a terrific show. It was a pleasure and an honor to suffer through last night's debate with the Bulwark team and with likeminded people all over the world. Thanks to JVL, Egger, Mona, Bill and AB, and, as always, to Jim Swift and all the people off-camera and off-mike who make it possible.
I am thinking that maybe the people around Biden aren’t willing to say ‘step aside’ in the same way that Trump’s people prop him up. They need to love America more than their guy - that’s how we got here. Where is their person to say the truth? Let’s hope they have one.
I purposely watched the debate last night as a voter, not as a pundit assessing the race. I thought Joe looked and sounded old but he still had some good answers. Sometimes it was very cringy and sometimes it was just fine. He reminded me of a first time debater that was over prepared and had tons of facts in his head and in the 2 mins he had could not determine which facts to use…or whether to rebut the ridiculous lies from Trump. Trump was disgusting. When he wasn’t lying (which was almost always) he spoke in complete general terms that were meaningless. I honestly don’t even have words for how low a person Trump is.
I read Tim Millers article in this morning’s Bulwark and David Frum’s article last night in the Atlantic…. both were very good and thoughtful. I will gladly vote for Joe Biden or if by some far off chance he leaves the race, I will vote for any Democrat that replaces him.
JVL, you are super smart, but you have been utterly wrong about Biden. Yes, he has served wisely in the job. However, you have ignored the obvious. A president simply has to be able to communicate effectively, it is an all-important part of the job.
We are all sickened by GOP slavish support of Trump. Dems pretending Biden can win is equally irresponsible. I always appreciate reality from the Bulwark.
I couldn't agree more. Especially at a time when so many of our citizens don't even seem to grasp the meaning of the American experiment, the last remaining sane party must have a leader capable of articulating what is at stake. President Biden must drop out of the race, and I feel that all of us who see Trumpism as an unacceptable threat simply must raise a hue and cry that team Biden cannot ignore.
I actually have faith in the dems in choosing a good replacement. It is crazy to assume they will pick a far-left unelectable candidate. They have no recent history of that.....this party picked Biden over Bernie. Harris would have to prove herself to be nominated & if she does then good on her.
Agreed again. I humbly nominate my (Michigan's) intrepid Governor, Gretchen Whitmer, but there are several more who also fit the bill. I'm already convinced that Harris is missing the inspirational/eloquent quality that seems essential now.
Amy Klobuchar!
I'm in!
Random pre-caffeine comments:
Well, people were expecting/ hoping for a sh!tshow, weren't they, and that's what they got.
Joe is old. I wish he was younger; I wish I was younger. I'll vote for the proverbial ham sandwich with a (D) next to its name before I vote for TFG, but I'm not the voter we're trying to get. I personally am confident that Kamala Harris is a vastly better option than TFG, but, again, I'm not the target audience.
Joe still will be old in November. TFG will be old and evil. This debate performance will be ancient history in November -- and it probably will be forgotten as soon as SCOTUS releases the rest of its opinions. But, while we're panicking and considering alternatives, I'd like to beg everyone to:
-- stop trying to make Gavin Newsom happen. I used to live in California, I have no animus toward Newsom, but there is no hope of him resonating with "real American" voters in places like Wisconsin or rural Pennsylvania.
-- same with Gretchen Whitmer. I'll happily vote for her, and I'd love to see a female president in my lifetime, but the first and only objective here is to keep TFG out of the White House, not to check boxes. Misogyny is a powerful thing in the US, we need a candidate who can *win.*
Representation matters, but so does winning and preserving democracy. Kamala Harris is the heir apparent, and again, I'd vote for her, but we all know what her favorables are like. I only can speak for myself, but right now, my first preference is for someone who can get in there and protect my rights rather than someone who looks like me, as much as, again, I'd *love* to have a female president.
Anyway. I'm Team Pete and have been for a long time. I was impressed with Jared Polis, Tim's favorite. Josh Shapiro is great, too. I'm aware that all are white men; my objective is to find someone who can beat TFG.
Love Pete, 2028. 2024: Amy Klobuchar! Wish she was the VP, all respect to Harris. She’d pull in the Midwest, people like her plain speaking, she's got good experience - the full package.
Yes, Trump will still be old and evil in November. And next January. And old and evil and crazy. I'm convinced he's come to believe his own nonsense. We've had Presidents before who I'm sure were not especially virtuous; JFK comes to mind. I can't think of one, however, who was delusional.
You're right. The time has come to put aside any considerations of identity or representation. The sole consideration must be to defeat Trump and do so decisively. (I, too, wish that candidate were Pete but sadly, can't foresee it happening.)
I'll add that I do agree with Douglas Brinkley's comments just now on Morning Joe -- Kamala Harris did an effective job post-debate last night. *I* like her; I'd have preferred her in the AG role, she's at her best when she allows herself to step up and be fierce.
CNN 👎. Should have had Tim Miller and John Stewart as moderators. Worthwhile watching then.
I was depressed and angry last night. But in the morning I realize we now have clarity. Until the debate, the election was a coin flip. Any honest assessment of last night’s performance by Biden has to end with the conclusion that he cannot win (absent the hamburger from heaven). If the Democrats don’t do what is necessary to give ourselves a fighting chance, then we are negligent. There is too much at stake for the country. If we believe our own rhetoric it is time for drastic measures.
Debate didn’t clarify many issues for me. Why is Joe Biden running again?
Who is the best golfer? ( Trump does have many club championships! ).
Which candidate put on the best performance? Trump did better with fictional, non-reality than Biden struggling to remember facts.
Which candidate is the best equipped to lead our country through turbulent times?
My vote is neither, but I will vote for any Democrat ( even Biden) over any Trumplican or third party candidate currently running!
Both are old. One is old and crazy and evil. It's not anyone's ideal lineup, but right now these are the choices.
I'm no cheerleader for Biden. His moratorium on LNG export facilities is exactly the wrong thing to do if we really want to wean Europe off Russian gas. He seems enthralled by the radical trans ideologues at DEd, HHS, DOJ, and elsewhere and their program to "trans away the gay" and to erase the difference between women and men.
True, voters, journalists, opinion leaders in general have not given Biden the credit he deserves. But 𝘺𝘢 𝘨𝘦𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘷𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘺𝘢 𝘨𝘰𝘵, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘫𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘯𝘦𝘸𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘳𝘴 𝘺𝘢 𝘨𝘰𝘵, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘺 𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘺𝘢 𝘨𝘰𝘵! It's a waste of time and energy to bellyache about how "unfair" it all is instead of thinking about what can actually be done 𝘯𝘰𝘸.
It isn't that Trump cannot be reelected; he 𝘮𝘶𝘴𝘵 not be reelected. I think he has actually come to believe his own nonsense. What kind of policy can we expect, for example, from someone who thinks the foreign seller pays our tariffs? I'm on the verge of thinking the Democrats should steal Trump's playbook from 2020 but do a better job of executing it. Desperate times call for desperate measures
I’ve rarely been more thankful for The Bulwark than I was last night! As dreadful as it was, I’m glad I was watching it with my fellow travelers.
"Heritage’s world-renowned experts—deeply experienced in business, government, the military, nonprofits, academia, and communications—spend each day developing innovative solutions to the issues America faces. From empowering parents in education, reversing growing spending and inflation, and protecting the unborn ..." "The 2025 Presidential Transition Project is being organized by The Heritage Foundation and builds off Heritage’s longstanding “Mandate for Leadership,” which has been highly influential for presidential administrations since the Reagan era. Most recently, the Trump administration relied heavily on Heritage’s “Mandate” for policy guidance, embracing nearly two-thirds of Heritage’s proposals within just one year in office." Your TOP (Trump's Own Party) Platform.
They've certainly drawn a bead on the whole issue of "A Democratic Republic" and they're ready to remove it for us, if we let them.
The irony that Dems are the only party expected to practice political hygiene while Republicans have a Douche.
For the last year or so, I've been hoping real real hard that Biden doesn't fall down some stairs between then and November. At this point, I am actively *hoping* that Biden falls down some stairs because that might honestly be our best shot at replacing him as the nominee going into November. Trump is going to win in four months if Biden does not either step down or fall down.
I was bullish on Biden going into this - he was decent in the 2020 debates, and he had a strong State of the Union this year. But I was wrong. That prior version of Biden didn’t show up at all, and instead, millions of people saw someone who’s on par with their mumbling grandpa. Absolute debacle.
I proudly voted for Joe Biden in 2020. I think Joe Biden is a good man overall and has been a good president. If he were 20 years younger, he'd be a lock for re-election.
Last night was painful. It was sad. Watching an enfeebled old man mumble and grasp for words--often finding the wrong word or stopping his answer altogether as he stood blinking under the bright lights was really sad to see. Joe Biden has a stutter. We know. Joe Biden had a cold. Okay. But the combination of his stutter, his elderly almost gone voice and his elderly memory and vocabulary (maybe dementia, maybe just age-related forgetfulness) has rendered him completely incapable of communicating on a level that a presidential candidate needs to. Case in point: All of the articles popping up about Biden "claiming" that the Border enforcement folks endorsed him was a self-inflicted wound. He very clearly, if you continued to follow his meandering and halting response, corrected himself to say "they endorsed my idea" but because he misspoke the first time and said they endorsed him, he turned it into a thing that will hurt him. This kind of inability to communicate clearly what he means without becoming confused or saying the wrong word--"billions" becomes "millions" and "Putin" becomes "Trump" and he gets things backwards as he's discussing them. Trump makes up a story about Democrats favoring abortion after a child is born, which is not a thing, and Biden responds by saying they don't favor late-term abortion. That's not late-term abortion and many Democrats do favor late-term abortion, but Biden's limited vocabulary and speaking ability in his advanced age doesn't allow for him to deftly answer the question or to show any amount of nuance in his responses.
When confronted with the torrents of lies and wild accusations by Trump, he was unable to mount much of a defense. Even when he had moments of clarity and coherence (mostly toward the end of the debate) he often said the wrong word or lost his train of thought and had to struggle to get back to what he was saying. His tone was also a hushed geezerly whisper that paled in comparison to maniacal bellowing from his opponent.
I'm not saying he's completely senile or incapable of doing the job now. He is incapable of campaigning the way he needs to in order to win this election. And there's no way that the man we saw on that stage can do this job for 4.5 more years.
His family and inner circle should never have allowed him to move forward with a campaign. They need to intervene now. Even with the conventional wisdom that Kamala Harris isn't electable--her interviews last night were far more effective in 5 minutes than Biden was in over an hour.
The party needs to thank Biden for his service and find a consensus candidate that will not be too radical but also has a high name ID. It's unconventional, but nothing about our government or politics in the age of the Trump terrorist MAGA cult is conventional.
Donald Trump will win decisively over Joe Biden. We can't allow him to get back to the White House.
If Biden remains in the race, I will still vote for him for he is the better man for the job even with all of his limitations over a maniacal criminal insurrectionist who seeks to dismantle the constitution and use the government to go after anyone he doesn't like, but this performance will not help his already low poll numbers and unless he suddenly changes his demeanor or improves his speaking ability, I'm afraid Biden is incapable of turning the dynamics of the race around.
It was a great night for America. And you guys played a part in hoodwinking the country that Joe was alright.
It's time for a group of senators to tell Biden to step aside at the end of his term, much in the way that Nixon was told to step down. Those who say "only Biden can decide" ignore this pertinent precedent. Despite the risks, it's time for new Democratic leadership because doing nothing looks like a surefire disaster.
He's stepping aside one way or another, because if he continues as nominee, he's going to lose this election.
Opting out of all Bulwark pods for at least a week. Inclusive of this one.
The fact that Jill Biden recognized the problems in the debate & felt she had to do the cringy “Didn’t Joe do well? He answered every question!” in a mommy praises toddler voice on the post debate stage says it all. She knows that he’s slipped. He’s not even the Joe Biden from the basement 2020 campaign.
Biden initially ran on being “transitional leadership” in response to concerns from the dem base about dem geriatric leadership. He implied one term to take out Trump and fix our foreign policy relationships. He should have chosen a VP who could beat Trump and then groomed his successor.
The problem is that there never was a clear choice for that successor. During the ideal window to set this up, every other Democratic figure polled below Biden, nationally vs. Trump -- which is basically how Biden won the nomination in the first place.
I appreciated Bill's candor. Bill, you are reflecting and validating how despondent many of us feel.
Obviously I keep picturing images of the Nazis and I've been trying to imagine what exactly what we should do if Trump gets full control of the military. If the shift begins to a Nazi-style government, I have begun to ask how exactly does one escape to another country?
Hopefully the administration can convince Biden to put the nation and the world first over his ego, and allow these younger governors step in to defeat Biden.
I saw a quote tonight from Axelrod saying that Trump should be seriously worried about losing if Biden is in fact replaced by a different Democrat candidate. I hope things move in that direction quickly.
Distressing, Biden did a good job but as president but it is clearly time to step aside, Trump cannot win. It is a dark awful night. The two political parties are in crises and someone needs to lead the Democratic Party and move forward.
I agree with Bill Kristol. It’s reasonable for voters to ask themselves whether Biden, given his age, is up for four more years, and conclude he’s not. What will he be like when he’s 86? But he’s not going to step down no how much people are freaking out.
I agree that CNN’s failure to push Trump on his CONTINUED refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election was unforgivable.
The Semiotics War ended tonight. Lies won.
I just feel sad and think it’s pathetic that we (and I include myself) can’t look past Biden’s well-known disfluency/stuttering and his age-related voice issues to give full value to the content of what he said in tonight’s debate, which was clearly far more sane/sensible than what we got from Trump. Trump’s ability to prattle on about sheer bullshit and do so in a loud, uproarious manner appears to have more capital with viewers (and as I said, I include myself…and I know better). We.are.fucked. Lisbon is looking good…Canada probably won’t take all of us. What a dark night for democracy.
I live in Brazil so I'm ok, but Brazil, like most countries, has a functional immigration system, so it would be hard to bring the rest of my family. You could come as a Digital Nomad, though. People are friendly and beautiful, and it's Summer all year 'round.
Portugal's also a good choice. Same language as Brazil, but in Portugal a lot more people speak English, too. And the weather's a LOT better than Canada.
Been working on my Portuguese for several years now! Both Brazilian and European. Gotta keep my options open 🙃
Gostei! 😂
True. Actually watching the debate a second time feels a bit lighter already. We probably all first had to get over our build up illusion Biden could come out as a super hero and not the old man he is.
I’m just thankful that you are here.
Buck up guys. Still a long way to go. Trump can’t handle success for long. And don’t blame CNN. The format should be a model for all debates going forward. And the moderators were fair. I barely noticed the moderators which shows they did a good job.
They were more traffic cops than moderators. I guess whether that's a feature or a bug is in the eye of the beholder. I agree that it would have been worse if they had been heavy-handed, though.
I guess they were fair in their delivery, but they were horrible moderators. They missed basic follow-ups, because they needed to "move along." Trump lied incessantly and Tapper responds with a thank you, no follow-up question to help us, the audience know HOW he will do anything. In the format they chose, the moderators should have been asking ad hoc questions based on the response, they didn't and just let Trump control the whole thing.
Thanks for giving voice to what we are all sitting here silently (or not so silently) screaming.
That said. I'm still casting my vote for Biden- or whoever is not Trump- and then I'm headed straight to Canada before the votes are in...
Just wondering, do you have legal status in Canada?
No. You can visit Canada for 6 months at a time though. Enough time to make plans about what to do next...
The reason I ask is because I'm a dual citizen. Originally from the US, but I moved to Canada after a job offer and lived and worked there long enough to gain citizenship. So it can be done.
However, I think most Americans underestimate how difficult it is to become a Canadian citizen. To begin with, you need to have a skilled job offer (not just waiting tables, stocking shelves, operating a cash register, etc), and generally the employer needs to explain to immigration why they need to fill the position with a non-Canadian. Then you have to apply for permanent residency after working and living in Canada a certain amount of time, typically two years. After an addition two years of living/working in Canada you may be able to apply for citizenship. But it is really the processing times that are the worst. They can vary considerably and can seem interminable. The timespan between the day I first arrived in Canada to the day I was doing my citizenship oath was nearly ten years. Some colleagues took less time, others took longer.
Not trying to discourage you, just relating the experience I had. It can be done, but it is not easy. The vast majority of Americans who vow to "move to Canada" give up after becoming more aware of the difficulties involved. Though as they say, nothing really worth doing is easy.
Sumi- kind of you to lay it all out! Yes, I think most people are unaware of how difficult it is to gain citizenship there but that's not necessarily the objective in my case. The idea is just to get out of the U.S. and regroup nearby in Canada and see how things unfold down here while looking at jobs up there. My husband is a chef and I am a social worker. Both seem to be preferred positions for fast tracking in the application system as far as I can tell. But even if it takes 10 years why would we care as long as we can remain in Canada during that time? The idea is simply not to be in the u.s. when it heads into a dictatorship. I figure at very least we will get 6 months to stay in Canada on a visitor visa. Enough time to plan our escape elsewhere if necessary if we can't land his in Canada. But I'm glad you outlined the process. I think it is important for people to understand that running to the border is not an easy out-
This was cathartic, if not depressing, thank guys. However, I actually would argue with the consensus at the end...NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO SLEEP ON IT. I'd argue now is the time for rash reaction. What must be done eventually, must be done immediately.
Sleeping on it reminds me exactly of the Dem's response to the Hur report from a few months ago. Which, ironically enough, came out at the exact same time (a Thurs evening, if I recall). While a smaller story, it left me - a Biden fan - but someone who has long had severe reservations about his cognitive capacity, feeling very grim about his prospects on the campaign trail and in a head-to-head debate. I even texted a few friends at the time, noting that the DNC powerbrokers had to convince him to step aside urgently. "It's February", I said. "It's not too late." Most felt that cooler heads should prevail. Give it a few days...see where the polls are next week...this'll blow over. And it sort of did. Except that failing to make a change does nothing to rectify the fact that this octogenarian is no longer cognitively fit to be tasked with the burden of defending democracy at home and abroad. And its only a matter of time before this becomes starkly visible to the casual newsgoers (who'll decide the election) again.
Tweet of the night I think:
"Biden: look, the fact is, we can’t… we don’t… look. Here’s the deal. And this is no foolin
Trump: there are ten billion guatemalans attacking the lincoln memorial right now"
https://x.com/drewjanda/status/1806497712969584681
LOL and WASF
That's a perfect capsule review.
Sigh. Yup.
Trump is democracy’s long Covid.
Sorry Joe just looks like a sweet old man lost in a corridor waiting for a nurse to get him back to his bedroom. Hard to watch.
After tonight, the question of ego will be asked. Joe Bidens' ego.