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Can Haley Make a Difference?

January 26, 2024
Notes
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:09

    Welcome to Beg to Differ, the Bulwark weekly roundtable discussion, featuring civil conversation across the political spectrum. We range from center left to center right. I’m Mona Charen, indicated columnist and policy editor at the Bulwark, and I am joined by our regulars. Damon Lincoln, who writes the sub stack newsletter notes from the middle ground, Will Saletan of the Brookings institution and the Wall Street Journal and Linda Chavez of the Niskannon Center. Our special guest this week is Yasha Munk.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:41

    He has been a professor at Harvard and John Hopkinskins and his author most recently of the identity trap, a story of ideas and power in our time. Welcome, one and all. We are gathered here to discuss New Hampshire and other matters. Let’s begin with the New Hampshire results and what it means. As we speak, it’s being reported anyway that the r n c is drafting a statement declaring Trump the presumptive nominee before, Nikki Haley has even dropped out.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:20

    So, you know, there he is. The mister anti establishment being declared the winner, and it’s worth saying that, in true champion fashion, he was very classy about his victory criticizing, Haley’s clothing, warning that she had skeletons in her closet, and issuing threats to any people who were donating to her, saying that they would never be part of Magga World if they, continue to support her. So, Damon, what’s your sense of it? Is it over? Is there something that we can learn about the Republican Party or about the shape of the rest of the race based on New Hampshire?
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:02

    Well, I have to say I’ve been one of the people who’s really been pushing hard for a while about how Haley doesn’t really have a path forward. She might even win New Hampshire, but she isn’t liked by enough rank and file Republican voters to have a future beyond New Hampshire. If she were to win or do really well there, it would be because of independent voters and Democrats coming across to vote for her as a kind of protest against Trump. But I have to say, I think she didn’t win. She finished double digits behind at eleven, barely in double digits.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:43

    But I I’ve been kinda personally pretty impressed with what I’ve seen. I I thought that her very feisty non concession speech. You know, she didn’t say explicitly, like, in a trumpian fashion. I actually won, but Her tone was very upbeat, optimistic, and forward looking. She made very clear.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:03

    She was not going to back out and endorse Trump. And then Trump’s, kind of, weirdly inverse, supposed victory statement on on Tuesday night, was was very much the tone of an aggrieved angry and bitter loser. And I think Haley has played this really, really well since then. And I’ve been impressed. She’s made clear.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:32

    She’s not gonna do what her fellow self Carolinian, Tim Scott did, which has been to really humiliate himself in front of Trump repeatedly, including that night on stage in New Hampshire with Trump and that she’s gonna fight. And frankly, I saw that news before we started recording about the RNC, and who knows if it’ll happen? But Haley, you know, has spoken to some reporters about this since and her statement is who cares what the RNC says? Basically she’s making a populist appeal that how dare they presume to override the wishes of Republican voters and tell us who the nominee is when they haven’t even voted yet. And then taunting them about not allowing a debate with Trump.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:17

    You know, how much of a chance does she have? I’d give it ten percent that she could turn it around at her home state and thereby propel herself into super Tuesday with a little momentum. Probably not gonna happen, but, damn, I would say she’s she’s gonna make it an interesting month. The donors seem to be sticking with her. And I like what I’m seeing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:40

    I’m feeling a little excited about Nikki Haley. Like, talk about turning a Nory Bush era Republican into a populist. Thanks, Trump. Well done.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:52

    Well, yasha, despite Damon’s enthusiasm, let let’s look at the other side of the coin, which is that if Haley couldn’t win in New Hampshire, which is about the most Haley friendly state on the calendar, the because least as as far as Republicans go, you know, there are a lot of moderates in the state. It allowed for crossover voting with some limitations, but basically independents could vote, and yet she wasn’t able to pull out a victory there. Nevada is is done. It’s already been cooked for Trump. So she can’t compete there, and she is not even on the ballot in Nevada.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:32

    And, so South Carolina, her home state Great, except that Trump is thirty points ahead. And it’s really hard to see how she can overcome that as great as that would be for the republic. What do you think?
  • Speaker 3
    0:05:48

    Yeah. Damon gives, Nikki Haiti a ten percent chance of somehow being able to best Donald Trump have to say I give her perhaps, say, one percent chance or a point one percent chance, it is in characteristic that style and characteristically undemocratic for the RNC to go ahead and, declare Donald Trump for presumptive nominee, that’s indeed what they go on to do. But it’s one of those cases where, they’re saying the thing out loud that we’re all kind of thinking. I think the earlier we stop pretending that this primary season is in any way interesting, and the earlier we reconcile ourselves to affect that, twenty twenty four, unless there’s some unexpected health event in, one of the two candidates is going to be a rerun of a twenty twenty election pitting Joe Biden against Donald Trump. The idea we’re gonna understand the true stakes of, the next ten months.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:46

    Will Saletan. There was a democratic primary, even though Joe Biden decided not to compete, wanted South Carolina to be the first nation primary for the Democrats. Nevertheless, there was a primary held, and Biden won it. A lot enough people wrote him in. What do you think about that?
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:05

    Anything?
  • Speaker 4
    0:07:07

    How hard do you want me to think about that?
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:11

    Well, you know, getting people to show up and write somebody in.
  • Speaker 4
    0:07:15

    Look, I have I have believed I believe for a year. That we’re heading for a rematch. Nothing happened in New Hampshire, you know, to make me reconsider that judgment in any way borrowing some event on the health front or the legal front. Donald Trump is gonna be the nominee of the Republican Party and Joe Biden is gonna be the nominee of the Democratic Party. I take no solace from New Hampshire whatsoever.
  • Speaker 4
    0:07:48

    As I looked at the exit polls, Trump won men and women. You know, he won people from He won the cities. He won the suburbs. He won the small towns and rural areas. I could go on and on and on.
  • Speaker 4
    0:08:06

    It was Nikki Haley’s best chance, she did not get close. Let’s face it folks. She didn’t get close, even though almost half of the electorate, you know, on the Republican side was made up of undeclared voters. And the reason she didn’t get close is that Donald Trump won seventy four percent of the Republicans. Project that out.
  • Speaker 4
    0:08:32

    For the next month, you know, or to Super Tuesday. If she couldn’t win in New Hampshire, where the heck is she gonna win? Seriously. We have to separate moral admiration from political analysis at this point. And, I know there’s there’s been a lot of journalistic analysis in the past twenty four hours to the effect that this reveals Trump’s huge weakness among independents.
  • Speaker 4
    0:08:58

    It reveals Trump weakness among the independents who felt moved to intervene in the Republican primary to try to derail him, you know, making large inferences about the independent vote from that very limited phenomenon strikes me as quite fanciful to be blunt. I think it’s time to face the distasteful reality that the longest general election in modern American political history is also going to be the most distasteful general election in modern American political history I wish that I could be a modern version of rip van Will Saletan wake up the day after the election, but, you know, if god were merciful, He would permit us all to do that, and the fact that he shows no signs of doing that makes me reevaluate my theology.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:48

    Okay. So, Bill, I beg to differ with you about, about the meaning of those independence, but we’ll get to that another time because Linda is, eager
  • Speaker 4
    0:09:56

    to jump
  • Speaker 5
    0:09:57

    in there. Bit here because I’m having a much different much different take. And I will tell you This has nothing to do with political analysis. And if I had, a few million dollars I would put it all into keeping Haley in this race for one very simple reason. We never trumpers I think were hoping that there was sanity within the Republican Party, that there were actually people in the Republican Party who believed in the rule of law, who believed in the sanctity of elections, Well, we’ve been disabused of that, over and over again.
  • Speaker 5
    0:10:35

    And clearly we were disabused of that not just in Iowa, but also in New Hampshire. However, I do think there is a path not to defeating Donald Trump in terms of his election. But basically driving him crazy. And I think Nikki Haley is driving the man bonkers. He’s already as we know.
  • Speaker 5
    0:10:59

    A little crazy. She has gotten under his skin like no one I have ever seen. And her being able to be out there to have money to go around the country to be getting up on stage to be running commercials in which he sort of takes him on, you know, bring it on, Donald, that kind of attitude, I think is going to make him more and more unhinged. What we saw on election night in New Hampshire was nothing sort of astonishing. He stood before that audience having just one and I think you know, one comfortably enough in New Hampshire.
  • Speaker 5
    0:11:38

    He had all the right things he, you know, could have said he had that group of cheerleaders behind him, people he had defeated, in the primary race. And what did he do? He talked about the quality of Nikki Haley’s dress. He’s you know threatened to expose her for god knows what he said that there were gonna be investigations. Now he’s made, threats against people who are donating to Nikki Haley, saying he’ll never take a penny of their money.
  • Speaker 5
    0:12:12

    They’re gonna be forever, forbidden. He was sweating profusely that orange makeup of his was sort of running down his face. He looked like a madman. And the more we can see this, the more I think we have some possibility. It may not be great.
  • Speaker 5
    0:12:30

    But some possibility of his imploding. I don’t know that we’re ever gonna see him tried and convicted before the election. But if he continues on this descent into madness that we are witnessing. I don’t think that he will in fact be able to win in November. So that’s my take.
  • Speaker 5
    0:12:51

    Interesting. Okay, Damon.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:53

    Yeah. I just wanted to clarify my ten percent remark. I only meant about South Carolina, which, you know, that probably is a wildly high too, but I didn’t mean win the nomination. And it is also true to keep in mind. I I I too have cited that thirty percent figure the is thirty points behind Trump, but we also haven’t had an public opinion poll in South Carolina since January fourth And a lot has happened.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:24

    Now, again, it’s not like Nikki Haley won anywhere, and that has fundamental altered the shape of the race, but I will be exceedingly interested to see what that number looks like. That was back when Rama swami and and and Christie and DeSantis for all still in the race. I wanna see those new numbers, and, then maybe I’ll go back down to one or point one percent, about even South Carolina. But, yeah, I think Trump is is almost certainly gonna be the nominee it’s a matter of how hard he has to work for it and as Linda was indicating how much he’s gonna melt down between now and when he really does lock it up.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:03

    You know, Linda, in twenty sixteen, I remember watching some of those primary debates, twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, and thinking, well, Trump has just behaved like a gorilla. And, obviously, people are gonna be incredibly repelled by this. That’s it for him. And, of course, it only made him, more popular. So, I mean, I I’d like to think that the meltdowns will hurt him.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:28

    I’m I’m not sure though. Joshua. Anything you wanna add about that? And also, do you wanna say a word or two about his, truth social post about presidents must have complete and total immunity for all crimes that they may think they need to commit while in office or out of office?
  • Speaker 3
    0:14:47

    Always good to think about, the crimes where the president is aiming to commit an office. Yes. Look. I think it’s obvious Trump is going to be the nominee. We’re ultimately all agreed about that, you know, with subtle differences of emphasis.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:01

    I also think we need to shape up to the fact that the American public is not finally going to wake up and recognize, you know, in a great majority that Donald Trump is, dangerous person who is unfit to be president. We’ve hoped for that at each turn. Since he entered US politics in twenty fifteen, and the moment still hasn’t come. I see no particular reason to think it’s going to come in the next months. And so, what we now have to think about is how to get out of a sense of just we can’t do anything and there’s a train rack that has taken place in front of our eyes, and all we can do is to sort of keep, eating the popcorn and wait for, the explosion to take place.
  • Speaker 3
    0:15:47

    You know, I think Democrats would have had an opportunity to rethink their presidential, nominee six or twelve months ago that moment has passed. But they do still have an opportunity to change how they’re running this race. And one of the things that, I wish we would do for the next few weeks and months is actually try to push the Biden White House to run a race that they can win on issues that they can win it on. I’m really struck by the fact when you look at the United Kingdom, that Kia Starmer, who is a couple of decades younger than Joe Biden, but is not in general, a much more charismatic transformative figure continues to be very far ahead in your opinion polls. And that’s partially because he’s running against very incompetent incumbent Tory government, but it’s partially because he has put real distance between himself and the far left of his political party that has made Kyostama safe for the many moderate British voters who are rightly put off by an increasingly extreme conservative party when you look at John Fateman, not necessarily my favorite politician in the United States, he has become a lot more popular by taking a lot of distance by seeking some beef with the far left wing of his political party.
  • Speaker 3
    0:17:07

    I think that if Joe Biden moves clearly to the center and demonstrates that the progressive activist wing of a party is not in control. He would significantly improve his chances of beating Donald Trump in the general election and depressing as it is That is what we’re going to be facing in November, and we better get our head into the game of how to avert Donald Trump winning but had to had to race.
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:36

    I don’t think you’ll get much of an argument from this panel, about that. I think we all, tend to agree, but let me just for the sake of argument present the opposing view. People will say, look, Biden has to hold together a broad diverse coalition that, voted for him last time and that includes progressives. And if progressives are, alienated and decide not to show up, that could sink his reelection chances. So he has to do a delicate dance, they would say, where he cannot afford to alienate anybody too much.
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:10

    And look, that is true. That is why it’s harder for Biden to win in twenty twenty four than it was in twenty twenty. It’s always easier when you’re in your position. To be everything to everybody and everybody can somehow project their hopes onto you and be more motivated by the awfulness, of who is in office, than by the potential disappointments that, the candidate based support is not quite what they, were, ideally hoping for So one way or the other, his coalition is probably going to shrink in twenty twenty four. The attempt of Biden White House at the moment is to not make any decisions, not have any clear rhetoric, not choose the battles in any way, but might potentially pose risk.
  • Speaker 3
    0:18:56

    And that would work if Biden was popular. And if he was clearly ahead of Donald Trump, but I think in the attempt to keep both the, sort of progressive voters within the democratic party and the many moderate voters to Broad Joe Biden over the line in twenty twenty. They’re gonna end up losing both, and we’re also gonna end up losing both because of the candidates who are going to be running against third Charlie Sykes Connor West on the left and probably a no labels ticket in the center. So I do think that they have to pick between those two strategies. And once you have to pick between those two strategies, I think trying to appeal to the moderate center where most American voters continue to be certainly relative to the far left.
  • Speaker 3
    0:19:43

    Makes a lot more sense. I wanna say one more thing, which is that often in this discussion, we’re conflating holding a diverse coalition to cover ideology, ideologically, and holding a diverse coalition to cover demographically, which is to say that many of our strategists who you’re sort of ventriloquating, right, to push me a little bit to make sure that we differ rather than back to agree in this podcast, would say, look, you know, we need voters, who are not white. In order to do that Biden needs to, stay open to the left or move to the left. But those are not the same thing. In fact, the biggest challenge in twenty twenty four is going to be all of us ideologically moderate or perhaps even conservative Latinino working class voters, black men, Asian Americans, who did vote for Biden in twenty twenty and who according to polls are very rapidly veering towards Trump.
  • Speaker 3
    0:20:35

    Verte is the diverse coalition that Biden really has to hold together. And actually, he can do that by moving towards the center, not by, worrying about what progressive activists say on Twitter?
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:47

    So Linda, I wanna come back to you just because I think I might have, left the wrong impression. Because when you said, you know, about Trump melting down and people reacting, I said, yeah. I was thinking that in twenty sixteen. It didn’t happen. But I actually do think, and this is where I differed with Bill.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:06

    I actually do think that Trump’s awfulness is the greatest asset that Joe Biden has. And I think Biden believes that. And I don’t think it’s wrong. I do think that when people have him in front of their faces again, You know, most people don’t pay attention the way we do to politics and to every truth social post and all the craziness. They don’t even probably have a clear idea of the The case is the legal cases against him, one of which, by the way, is in deep trouble in Georgia.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:34

    But leave that aside for now, There are enough other ones. But once those things are back at front and center, I do think that will be very, very important in people’s calculations, and we saw it even in a very conservative state like Iowa, where you had twenty five cent of the people who voted in the Iowa caucus saying they would not vote for Trump if he’s the nominee. That’s astoundingly high. And as we know and look, they may not they may not act on that. Some percentage of them probably will vote for him, but It doesn’t take that many when elections are decided by a few tens of thousands of votes in five swing states.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:17

    So The awfulness will be effective.
  • Speaker 5
    0:22:20

    It it Will Saletan and I will say that I think there is a difference between some of his, latest behavior and the way in which Nikki Haley gets under his skin. He was on the attack in twenty sixteen. He was funny. You may not have liked his brand of humor, but you know, he had some good lines and he went after, people like Marco Rubio and others on the stage in a way, that people thought you know, was amusing. And I think there’s a difference today.
  • Speaker 5
    0:22:50

    He doesn’t look strong in the way he’s attacking her. I think he looks weak. I think he looks, unmasculine in a certain way. I mean, his humanity is a big deal to his supporters and he looks like somebody who can’t take a punch when Nikki Haley is is swinging and I think, you know, again, there’s no question. I’m not in any way jesting that there is any way that Nikki Haley is gonna be the nominee, unless, you know, he were to drop dead, or be, you know, hospitalized and and incapacitated for the rest of of the campaign.
  • Speaker 5
    0:23:32

    He will be the nominee, but the more he can be exposed as this really unhinged character. The the more we can see these kind of meltdowns. I think it will have an impact it had an impact in sixteen with women. I think it will again. And the fact that, you know, he is again, up against a woman, but a very different woman.
  • Speaker 5
    0:23:57

    Nikki Haley is not Hillary Clinton. And I think her kind of southern charm, her feistiness is very different than, than Hillary Clinton was. So I’m still hoping again, you know, I’ve been disappointed over and over again, in the response of the American voting public in particular in the Republican Party. But, you know, let’s see. We’ll see what happens.
  • Speaker 5
    0:24:22

    Okay. Bill.
  • Speaker 4
    0:24:23

    Look, Linda. You know, with all my heart, I hope you’re right. Nothing would please me more. But there’s one thing I can’t forget. After four years of Donald Trump’s being in our face every hour of every day as president of the United States, his share of the total vote increased in twenty twenty over twenty sixteen, increased Now that tells me that the thesis that the more you see him, the more you dislike him, the more you see how self disqualifying he’s been for the presidency.
  • Speaker 4
    0:25:01

    That makes sense to the likes of us. But the American people seem to be responding to a very different set of political and social stimuli. And we have to ask ourselves why that is. Let me tell you, here’s my metric of a serious threat to Trump. And that is that you have a wide range of people who have run against him people who have served him and then broken with him.
  • Speaker 4
    0:25:35

    I’m talking about dozens of people or even hundreds of people whose names you would recognize Getting together and announcing that Donald Trump, these are Republicans represents an unacceptable threat to our constitutional order And therefore, we are forming Republicans for Biden. We are not gonna pussyfoot around anymore. You know, we’re gonna put our reputations on the line to appeal to our fellow Republicans who have qualms like ours but feel intimidated or feel it they have no place to go. And we’re gonna tell them flat out in a two way choice, which is what this really is. There is only one way to go.
  • Speaker 4
    0:26:18

    I am waiting. You know, can either of Republicans and on this wonderful show Tell me how long people like me are gonna have to wait for a group like that to form.
  • Speaker 5
    0:26:29

    For former Republicans Bill?
  • Speaker 4
    0:26:31

    Well, is Chris Christie a former Republican? No. He’s gonna be part of this group.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:36

    You know what? Our colleague, Sarah Longwell, I predict, will pull together this group. And there will be statements, there will be ads. She had pieces in the New York Times and the Bulwark last week saying it’s time to do this. I can pretty much guarantee that if this if anybody can do it, Sarah Longwell, behind the scenes, pull these people together, I bet Liz Cheney could make some calls, you know, to former secretaries of defense and various, you know, people, she knows everyone.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:07

    I think this will happen. I mean, I would I would bet a lot of money that this will happen. Okay. Yasha and then Damon.
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:15

    I just want to say that, you know, in the early days of a Trump presidency in early twenty seventeen, I spent a lot of time helping folks at organizations like Protect democracy put together these big public letters. I forget now of all of the different kinds of professionals were involved. Right? People, in the intelligence community, people who had been FBI agents, people who, you know, the idea was always that’s find somebody who has this independent standing in American life, right, people who are not progressive university professors. Right?
  • Speaker 3
    0:27:51

    People who are not democratic party activists, people who were nonpartisan up until this point. And if they warn about the danger, but Donald Trump poses. That’s going to carry some weight. That’s going to move some people because they’ll see that the kinds of people they admire, right, people who they think really have the interest of their country at heart to a true patriots. If they’re warning about Donald Trump surely it must make a difference.
  • Speaker 3
    0:28:19

    In retrospect, I think we were naive, and all of these efforts, well intentioned, and admirable folks that were didn’t accomplish anything. I hope Sarah puts together these documents. I’m sure they might make some difference at the margin to certain swing voters. It sounds like a perfectly admirable effort. The idea that any coalition of well
  • Speaker 4
    0:28:39

    respected Americans coming together and warning people
  • Speaker 3
    0:28:39

    about the danger of Donald Trump is suddenly going to, lead to a really significant fork in the road in the selection campaign. I I think sadly is naive.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:59

    Okay. Damon, I’m just gonna respond really quick, and I’ll come to you. Just to be clear, this is not going to be an open letter. It’s not gonna be an ad in the New York Times and the Washington Post. It’s not gonna be just that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:10

    I’m acting as if I’m running this. I’m not. I’m just predicting based on past performance, it will be, you know, very targeted ads to certain audiences where people are looking into a camera and saying, I’m a Republican. I’m a lifelong Republican. I served as Donald Trump’s Secret Podcast of defense, and I, you know, wanted him to succeed, etcetera, etcetera.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:32

    But what I saw frightened me, I could never, that sort of thing. Okay. That’s different.
  • Speaker 3
    0:29:39

    Absolutely. And as you know, I’m a huge fan of of sellers, and I do think that those ads that that that that she ran in run up to the twenty twenty election of people who are genuine Republican voters around the country, explaining why it is that they were no longer able to support Donald Trump, were much more effective than the sort of glitzy, you know, hitting Trump on whatever you know, works for progressive base, kind of ads that were doing well on Twitter. And I absolutely agree that that’s worthwhile to do. And that in key word demographics, that may give permission to people who’ve you’ve reverted Republican to say, no. No.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:17

    No. No. I’m not gonna vote for it on Trump. So a hundred percent support would offer. Just the idea that there’s going to be a turning point in the overall public discourse where any number of people can come out, and it’s just gonna sort of change the trajectory in mislattery.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:33

    It may change the trajectory in reelection by moving the ten thousand voters that are crucial in some swing state.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:39

    But that’s all you need.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:41

    Of course. But this idea that something is gonna happen and suddenly will all open our eyes and we’ll recognize the elfiness of Donald Trump and we’ll wake up from a nightmare that is the scenario that I think we need to demand speed ourselves from.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:54

    No. That’s not going to happen. That belongs in the fantasy category right up there along with, you know, All these Republicans are going to turn to the Never trumpers and say, you know, you guys were you were on to something. Just also never going to happen No. It only takes a few.
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:11

    That’s my point. And by the way, it’s true that Trump got more votes in twenty twenty than he did in twenty sixteen. There is an exchange going on in the parties because of Trump. So there are a huge number of previously unaffiliated you know, voters or voters who voted democrat who are now Republican because of Trump, there are also a tremendous number And we don’t know if it’s more or less, it’s probably less, but still there are significant number of Republicans former Republicans who are now disenchanted with the party because of its, nationalist trumpian turn. Damon?
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:51

    Well, I mean, one of the lessons I’ve taken from the last eight years of our politics is that elite signaling really doesn’t accomplish nearly as much as we used to think. And that counts even for generals, even for prominent Republicans who talk right at the camera and talk about what it was like to work for Trump. I mean, we all lived through the Trump years. We lived through January sixth. We were there.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:20

    We know if we’re open to it, where we know that he’s dangerous. And how many people, but again, like, if talking about at the margins, yes. It absolutely can be helpful. By all means do anything and everything. I would add as the last tiny point is that Some of Sarah’s ads, the ones in twenty twenty.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:40

    The reason I think why those were especially effective is because they were not elites. They were just average everyday Republicans talking about their own personal struggles with trying to remain loyal to their party in the face of the Trump phenomenon and saying, and essentially, I give up. I can’t do this anymore. That I think gave them a bit more authenticity. Even if the elites are just as authentic, it’s just a matter of of living in a political culture that is so suffused with distrust of anyone viewed as being more powerful and lead on top.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:20

    That I think makes it a very, very hard sell these days.
  • Speaker 4
    0:33:23

    You know, I do beg to differ because if you look at profile of the people who shut up in New Hampshire to vote for Nikki Haley. These are not people who are angry. These are not people who think they are falling behind. These are not necessarily people who respond to populist stimuli. That’s the split, you know, and Donald Trump has the lion’s share of the party, but there’s a share of it whose emotional makeup is different.
  • Speaker 4
    0:33:59

    And those people I think will respond. To elite signals, but I guess my universal field theory of this election is that people who are opposed to Trump ought to do everything. There ought to be a range of efforts. Some will succeed. Some will fail.
  • Speaker 4
    0:34:21

    Think of it as a venture capital strategy. The electorate is so evenly balanced. That any one success could make the difference. Leave it all on the field, as the sports fans say.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:35

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 4
    0:34:36

    And see what happens. Yeah. So I don’t think we have to choose between the yasha Damon theory of the case and my own theory of the case. We should do both. Mhmm.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:47

    I just wanna express a little bit of ambivalence about the, elite signaling matter because On the one hand, I hear you. I mean, it’s certainly true that the majority of the Republican Party proved pretty impervious to appeals from people who were perceived as establishment figures. There was a huge, elite, populist divergence there. And yet, it is also the case. I think that elite signaling did influence those people in the sense that most Republican office holders, opinion shapers, news types, Fox News, and all the rest of it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:27

    They did sign on with Trump, and they did give the permission until let people feel that this was a perfectly okay choice to make. And that was crucial if Trump had not received that starting with Russia Limbaugh, who was an elite of a source, whose signals I arguably were very important. To shaping the electorate. So I think it’s a mixed picture. Alright.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:50

    Let’s move on because we have a huge story that’s percolating now in Texas, and it’s related to what’s happening in DC. So In DC, you had senators who were working on a compromised piece of legislation that would have given funds to Ukraine and to Israel and to Taiwan and for the southern border. And Republicans were driving a hard bargain and Democrats were, you know, I mean, Bill was on this podcast saying biden has to, you know, get this done. Well, it now seems that based on the reporting in the last couple of days, that there is no deal to be had because Donald Trump has told the Republicans no deal. He does not want Biden to be able to claim a victory.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:43

    And so what that will mean that if there is no deal, it means that before Trump is even god forbid, reelected. We are, you know, possibly on track to undercut Ukraine. So Linda?
  • Speaker 5
    0:36:58

    Well, it’s a disaster. And as I’ve said, several times when we’ve discussed this topic on the program, I don’t believe the Republicans really want a deal. I think they want an issue for the campaign and Donald Trump clearly wants an issue. He thinks pictures of families, trying to cross the Rio Grande River ruling, this week that says that border patrol can in fact cut marb wire that was keeping access to the Rio Grande by border patrol agents who could go and actually take into custody, some of those crossing over that is gonna be unpopular, is unpopular. We already have the state of Texas saying that they are not going to, basically honor that decision.
  • Speaker 5
    0:37:48

    So, yeah, immigration is a mess, and it is clear and I in here, I’m going to come back and and say, I I think Bill is on to something in terms of the importance of immigration on the democratic side. Biden’s gotta do something. If they are not going to reach an actual deal that would maybe change the criteria for asylum seekers that would put in place a mechanism where people who claim asylum could more quickly have those claims adjudicated where they could have enough agents to be able to remove people, who, whose claims had been adjudicated. And, you know, work with Mexico to figure out what to do, about returning people to Mexico or not letting them in in the first place. But it’s gonna be Biden and Biden alone.
  • Speaker 5
    0:38:41

    He’s going to have to do something on his own because the Republicans are not going to give him an assist on this. They want immigration as an issue with which to hammer Democrats. They also don’t want aid to Ukraine, at least in the House of Representatives. And it looks to me like, Mitch McConnell and others, who’ve been staunch supporters of, of aid to Ukraine. Are softening on this.
  • Speaker 5
    0:39:08

    They are not going to push forward with it. So it’s a it’s a disaster. It’s a disaster, for the war in Ukraine. It’s a disaster for, immigration and it’s, a disaster, I think, for the president. If he’s not able to try to come up with some sort of a program that will allow him to look stronger in terms of in terms of pushing back.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:34

    Damon, these mega Republicans, like Governor Greg Abbott, of Texas, have a way of taking any issue that in the past would have been dealt with, you know, with people just taking positions and and arguing it out and seeing who which side wins. No longer. It is they they push everything to the point of crisis. And so So during the Trump administration, Supreme Court ruled on behalf of president Trump, vis a vis certain immigration matters, like whether he could prohibit entry from people, from certain terrorism sponsoring countries, And the court said this was within the president’s purview. Now the court being consistent, although the the mixture is different and it’s interesting how this case came out, you know, just in terms of the which justices voted which way.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:23

    But in any event, they’ve done the arguably the consistent thing and said, Biden has authority here. He’s the president. If he decides that, we’re not gonna have razor wire on the border, which is what Greg Abbott has, border patrol agents can cut through it, then that’s that. No. Now Greg Abbott has said that he’s going well, he has hinted.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:44

    That he’s gonna defy the United States Supreme Court and assert his power that he claims he gets from article one clause section ten clause three of the United States Constitution, which involves invasions he’s going to do possibly defy, you know, he’s hinted that he would defy it. And some of his supporters in Texas, one of them said echoing Andrew Jackson, the Supreme Court has made their decision. Now let’s see them enforce it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:15

    Those of us who write and talk about politics for a living. I don’t think relative to his his incredible influence, we don’t give enough credit to Greg Abbott as a a real catalyst for the last few years. You recall that, the thing that has shifted public opinion so hard against Biden on immigration is this kind of gambit that Abbott started of shipping refugees to Northern blue cities. In huge numbers. And, of course, you know, DeSantis kinda jumped on board and tried to get involved in that too, but it started with Greg Abbott, and that has had huge impact on public opinion.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:01

    And now my my sources in Republican world were giddy. On Wednesday of this week when Abid released this statement of defiance, the kind of Jacksonian swinging his fist at the feds. And this morning on Twitter, one of the trending topics on Twitter was Civil War, and I scrolled through some of these. And it was just tweets of right wingers delighting in the fact that Greg Abbott was, like, going to the wall here. To combat the evil Joe Biden and risking this federalist clash with the state of Texas against both the president and the squish Supreme Court who sided with him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:50

    It’s a mess, and it is a very sad comment about what it means to live in a country dominated by right populist politics that this kind of, as we say these days, Coast play at insurrection and rebellion. Ends up just permeating ordinary politics in this way. I mean, are we on the verge of a real civil war? I don’t think so. And yet, a lot of people on the right, especially people who are very deeply enmeshed in kind of online memes and arguments.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:25

    I really love sort of pretending we’re, like, on the cusp of civil war and these huge issues are at stake. And this is, like, four sumter down here on the border. It’s all incredibly dangerous. And as we saw with January sixth, things can feel like cosplay for an awful long time until they actually spill out into the real world. And, again, as I say, in in kind of ironic quotes, credit, I mean, Greg Abbott has really come to own this issue.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:57

    And I have a feeling he’s gonna be around sort of setting the setting the stage for a lot of the immigration fighting that is going to be the thing I think that on policy, at least, is gonna dog Biden all the way up to November fifth.
  • Speaker 4
    0:44:13

    Yasha.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:13

    In, the nineteen fifties, there were some governors who were defying, the Supreme Court defying the law of the land on integrating schools. And one tool in the toolbox of a president is to federalize the state national guard and force the issue, but it’s hard to see how that could happen today without sparking true violence and civil conflict. What do you think?
  • Speaker 3
    0:44:41

    Well, we’re not there yet. I think it’s premature to, anticipate that happening. I mean, so far, Abbott has sort of hinted at defying the Supreme Court order. He hasn’t, in any particularly concrete way done that. In the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties when the federal government did that on a few instances who was on a point of very high and important principle.
  • Speaker 3
    0:45:05

    Of integrating facilities in the American South. And it, of course, raised the temperature of American politics in a very real and powerless way, but, you know, the presidents that decided that they were going to ensure compliance with her order were both acting on a topic that had been the course of the civil war in a sense. They were acting with, depending on the he in particular issue, actually majorities of the mountain people behind them, I believe. And they were acting on something where, they were defending a fundamental principle of the United States. If Joe Biden were to be put in a position where he ends up doing something similar, he would have great difficulty communicating that the amount in public because he would be doing it in order to stop a governor of Texas from doing more to act against illegal immigration at a moment.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:07

    That’s right.
  • Speaker 3
    0:46:08

    When immigration is in the, minds of many, many voters, the number one political issue, and it wouldn’t be about a great principle, like whether or not to, integrate public facilities in the American South, it would be about, you know, what precise tactics border forces should use in order to, limit border crossings. So it would be a politically much harder, fight to win as well. Just two broader points. I mean, it’s just the sheer cynicism of American politics this moment is just deeply depressing. I mean, the fact that whether it comes to what measures we take to secure a southern border or whether it comes to how we support our key allies like Ukraine, you know, the desire to score a few extra points for the election in November takes precedence over everything else, and it is when you step out of a game, but we play of thinking and writing about politics for a living, not that hard to understand why so many people look at, our political system and say, this is all deeply dysfunctional.
  • Speaker 3
    0:47:16

    Why should I trust what is happening within it? On a slightly more positive side, it is interesting to see the supreme court rule on this important and emotional issue, five to four in favor of a Biden administration. Now I have some fundamental disagreements with the current majority of the Supreme Court, but I do think it’s always worth remembering and hardening to remember but this is not a mugger court, but they have their own ideas and principles about how to interpret for constitutions. Some of which I agree with. Some of which I certainly do not agree with that in twenty twenty, when the chips were down, they did not use their judicial power to help Donald Trump stay in office.
  • Speaker 3
    0:47:59

    And in becoming months when the chips are down, I don’t think they’re going to do the same either.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:04

    Yeah. Bill, there are things that are happening that are to Biden’s advantage. We shouldn’t lose sight of that. Consumer sentiment is improving. People seem to have more optimism, about the economy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:48:18

    Those things are very important. But as you’ve said, and and I think it’s right, the border is a huge vulnerability for him. And that does not seem to be getting any better. And since the Republicans are playing real hard ball here, and they’re willing even to throw Ukraine under the bus just to make sure that Biden cannot claim a victory on this. What other options does he have?
  • Speaker 4
    0:48:45

    Just for the sake of argument, but also because I think there’s an honorable argument to be made here. I do want to question the premise that the deal is dead. I don’t think Mitch McConnell has reached that conclusion. I don’t think Chuck Schumer has reached that conclusion. I don’t think the negotiators who have said that the deal is all but done have reached that conclusion.
  • Speaker 4
    0:49:11

    So here is a possible scenario. A deal with specific language is announced next week. Schumer brings it to the floor. Schumer brings it to the floor. It passes not with as much Republican support as would it would’ve had if Donald Trump had taken a different position, but still you have ten or fifteen Republicans who are prepared to vote in support of the package, which then goes to the House of Representatives.
  • Speaker 4
    0:49:42

    Assume that whatever the speaker’s private views on to Ukraine may be, and he’s said supportive things. I take him at his word. Suppose he adopts and follows the Hastert rule that he will not bring a bill to the floor that does not enjoy majority support within the majority caucus. At that point, the president of the United States has a choice to make, and I hope he has the guts to make the right choice. I think at that point he would have to say this cannot stand, you know, the fundamental interests of the United States are at stake.
  • Speaker 4
    0:50:25

    The president of the United States announces that the Democratic leadership in the house with the full support of the White House is going to try to get A majority of the House of Representatives to sign on to a discharge petition, which by late winter or early spring, if that were to happen would bring the bill to the floor. This is a mo this would be a moment of truth. For the same Republicans in the House Republican caucus. People who, you know, the the Mike Gallicers of this world. You know, there are a bunch of them, you know, who are responsible voices on defense and foreign policy, will they be willing to break with their own party in order to bring a bill to the floor which would pass if it got to floor because they know damned well that it’s in the national interest of the United States to do so.
  • Speaker 4
    0:51:22

    What will they do? I do think that this is a game from very high stakes And it’s not a kind of issue where the White House can say, well, we’ll let the Will Saletan the majority of the minority of the House of Representatives work it out. We’re way past that. It’s time for the president of the United States, who has really state his reputation in foreign policy. On the defense of Ukraine.
  • Speaker 4
    0:51:47

    That is his signature foreign policy issue. If he can’t make that work, I think the impression of weakness and fecklessness will be reinforced, and here I join forces with Yasha. If you can’t make a firm decision as president of the United States and put your prestige on the line, then you’re probably not gonna succeed. And of sermon.
  • Speaker 1
    0:52:11

    Excellent, sermon. Alright. Before we turn to our highlights and lowlights of the week, I want to have a word from Babble. What is the best way to learn a language? Well, it’s total immersion.
  • Speaker 1
    0:52:25

    Going to another country, being thrown in at the deep end and having to make your way and learn how to do daily activities. And most of us don’t have that opportunity. And yet, one in five Americans say that learn a new language is on their bucket list. And if that’s you, make twenty twenty four the year that you finally check it off the list with Babble. So what does Babble do?
  • Speaker 1
    0:52:53

    They have personalized classes online, it’s incredibly convenient, and it appeals to every different learning style. So if you’re mostly verbal, it reads the words to you, and you can hear the accents, and then you pronounce them, and you could tell whether You’re doing it right or wrong. It corrects you. It makes it really easy to go back and do things again. It’s incredibly user friendly, the interface.
  • Speaker 1
    0:53:19

    Obviously, those tech people have worked long and hard on this, and it’s chopped up into little pieces. So there are ten minute lessons designed by over one hundred and fifty language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks. The tips are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, like conversations at a party, which I was doing, when I tried it, and you’ll be ready to practice, what you’ve learned in the real world pretty quickly. So Here is a special limited time deal for our listeners. Right now, you can get fifty five percent off your Babbel subscription only for our listeners.
  • Speaker 1
    0:54:03

    And viewers on YouTube at babel dot com slash beg to differ. That’s fifty five percent off at babbel, b a b b e l dot com slash beg to differ. Rules and restrictions apply, and we thank them for sponsoring this podcast. Alright. We now come to our highlight or low light of the week, and I will start with Damon.
  • Speaker 2
    0:54:29

    Well, this is gonna be one of these weeks where I pick something off the headlines out of the political world. We all need to take a little break from that. And I’m also going to plunge far out of the present, because I have a confession to make. I never watch the full run of the show. The Sopranos, when it aired, twenty to twenty five years ago.
  • Speaker 2
    0:54:52

    And just a week or two ago, we passed the twenty fifth anniversary of the first season of the Sopranos, and I decided to take the plunge a little before then. So not exactly timed to the anniversary. I never really I mean, I watched some of it. I went I dipped in and out of it originally. I found it a really just unbearably unpleasant at the time.
  • Speaker 2
    0:55:15

    The vulgarity, the violence, the angry men. I it just, you know, in the late nineties, I was a precious young and delicate snowflake, and I just couldn’t handle it. I guess I’ve matured a little bit or at least been worn down by great shows like breaking bad, which follow from what the Sopranos pioneered. But I have to say in in retrospect, seeing it now at my ripe old age, it really is a great show. There are some episodes where I feel like I can barely stand to be in the presence of these people, but there is a depth there.
  • Speaker 2
    0:55:50

    It it’s important historically because of the great shows like Madman and and breaking bad and others that it sort of paved the way for in prestige television that had its great moment about a decade later. But then just as as a great work of popular art, the scripts, the acting, the the kind of depth of humanity in it, is is really enduringly impressive. And, I’m enjoying watching it now. You know, it’s It’s it’s kind of production quality in the first couple seasons isn’t quite up to what came later in prestige television, but by the third and fourth season, it’s it’s as good as anything that came later. And, you know, I I definitely I can say after twenty five years, you know, that was pretty good.
  • Speaker 1
    0:56:41

    Well, thanks for that. I think we should devote a whole episode sometime to sharing, you know, our favorite shows and and talking about them because people are endlessly interested in that, and I’m always looking for new things. I did watch the Sopranos though, and I I agree. It was One of the best things it’s ever been on television, I have to say, despite the vulgarity and the angry man and all that. I I agree with everything you said.
  • Speaker 5
    0:57:04

    Yasha,
  • Speaker 3
    0:57:05

    Well, it’s funny because, you know, I think it’s partially that the HP or Max app seems to be pushing with the Pronos at the moment. I found myself rewatching with Pronos and with weeks as well. And I agree. It it really really holds up. Now I was gonna talk about the low light in a boring political sense, which was just seeing all of Donald Trump’s competitors who claimed to have some deep reason not to want Donald Trump to be the next president of United it’s lining up right behind him, you know, Ron DeSantis, which is perhaps unsurprising because he’s very cynical.
  • Speaker 3
    0:57:37

    Vivak Rameswami was perhaps even less surprising because he seemed to be auditioning to be his vice president all along. But even Tim Scott, who I would have hoped might have been a little bit more principled than that. But since Damon has set a different mode, I’m not gonna talk greatly about politics. I’m gonna do the low light of a week about a supposed prestige television show that I have finished watching recently belatedly that I think is no good at all. And that succession was just took home, you know, the third, Emmy for best drama in a row, you know, one of the most awarded show in television history at this point.
  • Speaker 3
    0:58:15

    It is a terrible show. The writing is bad. They’re just swearing at each other in a caricature of what the business world is like. The plots are kind of like a telenovela without the charm. I mean, It’s just one random, unmotivated plot twist after another.
  • Speaker 3
    0:58:32

    There is no coherent character arc at all. I’m sorry this is spoiler, spoiler alert, I suppose, for the first two seasons of the show, they all try to impress the patriarch of a family, Logan Rawe, they do anything they can just to you know, win his favors. When suddenly they decide they don’t care about that, and this is gonna be CEO of his flailing company, even for the already very rich, make it go be CEO of anything they want. None of it makes any sense. And the only reason Americans like it is that they can look at that set of people and say, you see these people are the worst possible people, and I’m better than them.
  • Speaker 3
    0:59:04

    I’m not a fan at all of succession. I think Sopanos is much better at portraying flawed bad people in a in a subtle interesting empathetic way, so I agree with Damon, and I’m gonna make myself unpopular with many of your listeners by saying succession is hugely overrated.
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:23

    Okay. But those the scenery. I mean, that’s when they go to Norway, to the that mountain top resort. I mean, there are so many great scenes that the villa in Italy. I was just watching it for the real estate porn myself.
  • Speaker 3
    0:59:37

    The locations when we’re not in, conference rooms in Manhattan Manhattan are very big.
  • Speaker 1
    0:59:41

    Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Phil?
  • Speaker 4
    0:59:44

    Yeah. I have no idea whether this ranks as a highlight or a low light or somewhere in between, but there’s a lot of interesting news or quizi news coming out of the Middle East in particular, you know, Israel and the Gaza conflict, the role of Qatar as an intermediary in the negotiations, the new determination of president Biden, you know, to get the CIA direct in the middle of those negotiations. And interestingly, rumors that the Israeli government has not denied that Netanyahu actually made an offer to of us that would have involved not a forever ceasefire, but pause in the neighbor in the neighborhood of two months that there would be a return of all of the hostages and then a version of the strategy that Israel agreed to in after its incursion into Lebanon in in the early nineteen eighties that is rather than surrounding and killing, the leadership of the PLL, that Israel will allow them to go into exile in Tripoli. And apparently Netanyahu made an offer to allow the leadership of Hamas that the military political leadership is already in Doha, but the military leadership, which is, which is now in Gaza, to leave with their lives intact, the obvious they not their power.
  • Speaker 4
    1:01:11

    Of course, Hamas did not accept this offer, but if these rumors are anything like true, it does suggest that the Israeli government is looking for some sort of middle ground as well they might because the pressure on the government to bring back the hostages is intensifying by the day. The demonstrations are now not only in the knesset, but also at Netanyahu’s residence in in Jerusalem and also his private restaurants and residence in Caesar. He is now being dogged by the families of the hostages, and that is not a good look for the prime minister. Stay tuned. But I think something may break in the next week or two.
  • Speaker 1
    1:01:59

    Thank you Linda. Well, I’m
  • Speaker 5
    1:02:00

    gonna go back to culture. Departing Bill’s lead here. And by the way, I, Josh, I absolutely agree with you. Success was absolutely awful. And I watched every single episode.
  • Speaker 5
    1:02:15

    So I don’t, you know, I cannot explain that. So I am gonna go back though. This week we, got the nominations for Academy Awards. I don’t know why I care about this. Maybe it’s because I remember as a kid sort of sidedly watching when they nominated movies and actors and, you know, watching the award Sarah Longwell, It’s become, predictable.
  • Speaker 5
    1:02:39

    Half of the movies, that are nominated for best picture are pictures that no one will ever see that, you know, nobody is interested in. I’ve seen about half of, of the ones, that were nominated. But I do want to mention one of the nominations, which was for, Coleman Domingo who plays Bired Rustin in a Netflix movie. And I want to reference it, with a an article that appeared in American purpose. And I do that because I don’t think, the rustin movie, which is called rustin, is very good.
  • Speaker 5
    1:03:19

    It was entertaining. I didn’t think it was very good. Coleman Domingo did a, you know, a perfectly serviceable job, although as someone who did not know by address and well by any means, but who was around him a number of times. I don’t think he really captured, by but the article I’m recommending from American Purpose, which is called, it’s by Arch Puddington, who did work for buyer rustin for about a decade in the nineteen seventies. And it’s called Netflix takes on a line of democracy And he mentions that it’s an admirable tribute to buyer rustin, but fails to capture the civil rights leader’s faithfulness to the liberal democratic tradition.
  • Speaker 5
    1:04:01

    And I recommend it because I think fired rustin is one of those, leaders in the civil rights movement. Who has never been given the kind of due that I think he deserved. He was a major figure. During the the nineteen sixties and even into the seventies. And he was an extraordinarily interesting man.
  • Speaker 5
    1:04:22

    And I think what arch is able to do in this article is to describe the way in which fired Ruston in many ways, was more sophisticated in my view. And I think more principled in certain ways, than many of the other civil rights leaders of the time. And so I highly recommend this article. And, you know, if you have nothing else to do by or Dustin is a movie. Isn’t isn’t it isn’t a bad movie.
  • Speaker 5
    1:04:52

    It’s just not a great movie.
  • Speaker 1
    1:04:54

    Thank you for that. Well, I was going to mention, and I will briefly, as a low light, what Jamie Diamond said when he was in Davos, speaking of signaling from elites, Jamie Diamond, head of JP Morgan Chase, you know, was talking about the potential for a Trump second term. And instead of saying, that, you know, holding up a cross. He said, well, that the Trump did some good things, when, when he was in power. By the way, oh, it’s worth her calling that, right after January sixth, the die Diamond had said, this is not who we are as a people or a country and he denounced what happened and so on.
  • Speaker 1
    1:05:39

    Now he’s saying that, his company is ready for either of Second Biden or a second Trump administration, he said my company will survive and thrive in both. Which is just the worst possible message for one of these international bankers. Just that, you know, it’s like he’s putting the welfare of JPMorgan Chase above the welfare of the United States. By the way, his bank cannot possibly thrive if the United States doesn’t thrive. Just on so many levels.
  • Speaker 1
    1:06:12

    It was shameful for him to convey that. I would just also like to highlight though, a book I just finished called the best minds by Jonathan Last. Came out in just last year twenty twenty three. It is a memoir slash rumination about how we treat the mentally ill in this country, and it it begins with a fascinating, really, like, novelistic description of his, childhood friendship with this young man. The two of them grew up in Long Island.
  • Speaker 1
    1:06:44

    Together, they both went to Yale. They both had, you know, very, high powered careers ahead of them his friend had a psychotic break at the age of twenty four. And it is the story of how this happened and then what happened after. And it’s it’s a story of a friendship. It’s a story about madness.
  • Speaker 1
    1:07:06

    It’s also a story about how badly we have as a society, how badly we have mishandled the question of how to handle mental illness, whether you can say that mental illness causes violence, whether that’s insulting and false, or whether there’s some truth to it. And, it’s just brilliantly done. So, it’s called the Best Mine’s Jonathan Rosen, highly recommended. And with that, I want to thank our guests Yasha Month. Thank you so much.
  • Speaker 1
    1:07:35

    I wanna also suggest everyone read Yasha’s fantastic book, the identity trap, which helped really does help you to understand so much of what’s happening on campuses and, and in our broader society. I want to thank our panel. Also, our producer, Jim Swift, and our sound engineer Jonathan Last. And, of course, our wonderful listeners, and now viewers. Thank you all, and beg to differ will return next week as every week.
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