Trumpy With A Chance Of Meatball Ron

Hello,

and welcome to the next level podcast. I’m Tim Miller, which my best friend with the l and LGBT. Sarah Longwell. Sarah, it’s good to be with you. I’m a little sad we’re alone today.

But it seems like our the third ever of our triad is is in a little recovery period.

But he’s out of commission. We’ll let him tell his own story against fine.

But he’s fine. You don’t have to be worried about him. You can regale everyone with all of his Percocet stories next week. But he’s on the DL for one week. And while he’s got this is worth mentioning next week when he comes back, we’re gonna have a little bit of news.

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went to Disney?

Well, fortunately, no, actually. I’m not I’m not a Disney man, as you know. But Disney would, I think, have been preferable to what I didn’t dad was spending the day with Ron DeSantis. I’m doing the circus this week, and and Ron, I don’t know if you know. He launched his book yesterday, the Courage to be free.

And had a couple events. He had one in Tampa, then one at books a million in Leesburg, Central Florida, Real America, and then went to the villages. Not quite as real America as my first time in the village as a big bucket list moment for me. And and now I’m back in Orlando.

Few questions. Did you get together with any of the gays against groomers?

All my old pals from TP USA. None

of

them showed up. I was disappointed.

It’s too bad. They usually have their shirts and everything. I know.

And I thought we could’ve bought a couple of them like I mentioned. We we’ve become social media, buddy. So I can just I like to keep monitored on what’s happening out there in the gaze against Grooveers World, kinda see what their messaging is these days, see if they’ve updated their brand at all. But no, none of them showed up. I did see an old coworker who seems like he was stealthily working on the DeSantis for president.

Campaign and was like —

Daphne. — was yeah.

I I think so because he was, like, excited to see me at first. It’s, like, Tim. I haven’t seen you in ages. Like, we walked out of the bathroom, and then he saw all the circus cameras. And I was like, alright, Tim.

You’re a journalist man. And, like, sprinted away and texted me. Maybe we should together sometime, you know, away from the camera. So Today. So, you know, I I had a little bit of a reunion, but it was I think I I have If you don’t mind, I guess I’m the host, I’ll just ask myself a question.

If you don’t mind, maybe I could just put a quarter in my own mission.

If you could give me a chance, I promise I would ask you questions. That’s okay. Great. No. You the question.

It’s super easy. It’s all I would do is just say, like, Longwell me, Tim, what’s it like being on the road with Rhonda to hit this? And then you go, so you don’t have to actually set your up. I can do it free up. Okay.

That’s

great. That’s good to know. Alright. I’m just I’m getting you and JBL are pros on the two man game. I’m a, you know, I’m a three on three basketball kind of guy.

I

promise you you’ll still talk the most. Nothing changes. It’s all you.

That’s rude. Okay? Sam, I did a good job hosting Thursday night fireworks the other night, and it was I only did twenty eight percent of the talking, and it was hard. You know, it was challenging because I was always trying to anyway, it’s interesting. I guess, I would say, to see old meatball run, run to sanctimonies, run to sanctist.

What Trump’s working through all the nicknames out there and

to talk Quick side to to scientist.

Yeah. That’s

just I’ve decided my other nicknames too Longwell.

He once gave an interview where he explained why some of his nicknames had the apostrophe and some didn’t. I guess, I don’t I I think Ryan Ted had the apostrophe and Lil Marco did not You know, he is Despite his butch masculine reputation, you know, he’s a New York kind of opera and, you know, style he fancies himself a style and architecture magnate. Right? So I think that he looks at the words anyone’s something that he believes is beautiful. And I think that he that Ron Desanktimonious, maybe he had too many syllables, and Ron Desanktus maybe looked a little nicer to him.

Maybe Trump heard from a few of the people who are deeply committed to him and they were like, what does this mean? It’s like a long difficult word, but just like not everyone throws around.

It is. And I Longwell you we asked because we did some man on the street outside of Iran’s events and asked a couple of people about the nicknames and at least one fella had trouble spitting it out Ron DeSantis really didn’t, like, literally said and kind of in a Jovial friendly way was like, I just I don’t know what it means. Like, I I really don’t. I don’t know what that word, sanctimonious means.

A meatball run I I don’t know why he just doesn’t stick with the meatball thing because it’s got, like, the best Trump hallmarks. It is both somehow a a physical descriptor while also being sort of racist. And, like, that just feels like a bull’s eye, Trump. But, It’s weird. He’s like, workshopping the design harmonious into just something shorter.

I

think I can field this one as well. The people didn’t like meatball. And several people said that that was fake news, actually. You know, several

people calling in me.

Yeah. Now as the media said that, but but Donald’s, that’s too low for Donald’s. Okay? He would not. He would not, you know, it’s kind of succumb.

It

doesn’t sound like our guide. Of course.

Exactly. He’s that guide us. Don’t think that that would that he would do that. To a fighter like Ron. So I think that might be why I didn’t stick with meatball because I do I think it lands with those of us maybe, you know, a little bit further on the cuff spectrum.

You know, we kind of get a little bit of a kick out of the of the meatball, but the DeSantis fans because as you know, what the folks are I think this is the most interesting thing about talking to these people is that the voters that are up for grabs here that are gonna be up for grabs like both.

Mhmm. Right. That’s right.

And so this is a little bit of a different problem than he had in twenty sixteen. Right? That I do think that he’s still working through. And and because I think that really maybe at the beginning, they had a kind of a soft like for Marco or Ted or Jeb or whatever. But, like, there wasn’t any bond.

Right? Correct. You know what I mean? Like, there just wasn’t. And it so it was easy to kind of peel them away.

Marco is Latino and globalist and, you know, jobs, bush, and Ted Cruz, one of us, unlike old people in America. And, you know and so right. And so he he the personal attacks didn’t kind of boomerang back on Trump at all. That might not be true for DeSantis a little bit. It’s a little bit of a different deal when you’re when you’re competing over a terf of.

People who are maga that like you, but also like this other guy, and are are maybe interested in and taste of the new soup.

Yeah. So I don’t know if you listened to my Focus Group podcast with Tara Palmieri. I did.

It’s really good.

So this was sort of one of the main things that I think is is a dynamic that we don’t quite yet understand how it works, but is going to be pretty decisive, which is, is Trump able to attack DeSantis and lay him low or when Trump attacks DeSantis, does that alienate more people from him who expect these guys to like be pals and be on the same side. I don’t like seeing them bite. And one of the things I hear in the focus groups often from Trump and DeSantis fans are like, they’ve got the strategy. The strategy is like, it is a Trump DeSantis taking. Trump, the lead, DeSantis the VP, sixteen years of Republican domination.

This is how we’re gonna do it. So it has not permeated in a lot of ways. The, like, mental ecosystem on the right that these two guys hate each other now and that they are absolute rivals and that there’s not really a world in which they’re getting together.

Right. So at the same as the second stop,

which

is at the books a million. Mhmm. Kind of nice, I guess, actually, the the big box book stores having a resurgence. You know, out here in Leesburg. Like

a new book’s a million or is it a legacy book’s a million? Yes.

It was a legacy, but it seemed to be doing pretty well. I don’t know. Right. It was

out

there, and it was like, an hour outside of Orlando. So I mean, we’re we’re in the we’re with the real folk. And and outside that event, my new friend, Laura Lumer. Do you know Laura?

Not personally, but I’m familiar with her work.

Yeah. She’s a for those who are not, she’s a And when I’d say conspiracy theorists, like, she’s not kind of like a soft little just asking questions, Tucker conspiracy theorists. She’s like, you know, frazzled drip like Hillary is like wearing baby skin on her faces, like conspiracy theorists. Like she’s the full

It leaves every word of just super deep into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I bumped into her outside the books of millions. They were having a protest of DeSantis. Which was Trump against the Santos. Right? You know, the trumpers, they’re only trumpers.

And talking to those folks, they also Ron DeSantis, which was interesting, but they wanted to stay as governor, and they were comfortable. Let’s say, when we pose the hypothetical. If Trump needed to kill him to win, are you gonna be okay with that that group? You know, the type of group that goes out onto the street? He always transfers.

Yeah, raise the Trump flag, Trump twenty four, fuck your feelings, like that crowd, the Joe and the Ho gotta go, t shirts like that crowd. Yeah. They’re fine with it. K. Now the next layer over, though, into the villages, you know, for the second Ron DeSantis event.

I was talking to DeSantis, the people that were there, some of them are particularly the rich villages types. Like, they’re like in the Saint Jesus camp. Right? Like, that’s gonna bring it to his base. Right?

Like, where I moved from New York, you know, I went to Penn like, man, I’ve retired at the villages. Like, those types of folks who talk to, that’s gonna be DeSantis’ base. But some of the other, let’s say, more Florida native villages Ron DeSantis, you know, maybe more a little more Florida man kind of vibes, but senior citizens, they were in this middle kind of ground that the ones you talk to, like, it’s still early. I haven’t decided. You know, I like both of them.

There’s some things I like about both. When you ask those folks, about the Trump attacks. They don’t like it.

Right. Right.

And so it’ll be interesting to see how he navigates that, whether it ends up mattering because he’s gonna get a lot of positive reinforcement feedback loop and Laura Lumbers. Right? You know, you know, who are like, hell yeah. Meatball. Right?

And then there’s gonna be this other group that is gonna be the key constituency that might not like it as much. So I thought that was interesting. The other interesting thing was just Ron DeSantis’ messaging. And I I guess isn’t surprising. It’s just noteworthy.

I suffered through, boy, I think it was a good seventy eight minutes. His talk at the villages. I was surprised that that the crowd, the blue hairs were able to stay up for it. It was a late night set. It came on around seven fifty.

It’s like, you know, folks there had already had their post dinner brandy.

Yeah. I’d

be

done.

Yeah. It seemed to be like there might have been some people missing from the crowd because, you know, some folks had already you know, nodded off to Brett Baier a couple of hours earlier. But his remarks, very lengthy remarks, the performance isn’t there. Right? It’s Longwell.

There’s some boring parts. But when he’s hitting the notes, they really like it. And he’s right square in the middle of what folks want. Right? Like the stuff that he’s giving on woke, on Disney, on Fauci, on immigration, Martha’s Vineyard, schools, sexualizing our children, drag queens, which we get into later.

Like, all of that, he is writing the bull’s eye of what the crowd were spots is the lips hating him. He’s really big on this, on the most hated government in America. Right? So he is hitting all their erogenous zones. But he doesn’t even really try to do, like, the old school Republican stuff.

Like, literally, he is fifty seven minutes into his speech, and in a three minute period, he takes through We cut taxes. We’re getting rid of some red tape. We’re doing tort reform here in Florida. We’re doing school choice. And hopefully, in this in this session coming up, we’re doing constitutional carry.

All those applause lines, people liked it. But that all came in, like, after a very very lengthy speech. So it’d be interesting when he’s got to cut it down. For the roadshow, he’s going out to Iowa and New Hampshire and all that. It’ll be interesting to see if that stuff even makes the cut.

I mean, like, the core excitement stuff is, is all COVID. All woke, all the elite media and the lips hate me. So

there’s a lot of people in the focus groups talk about Ron DeSantis. He’s drunk without the baggage. Gibbs was on my focus group podcast the other day too, and he was arguing that in order to win a Republican primary, Rhonda Sanchez is gonna have to go so far in this, like, trumpy direction that just like in the midterms, swing voters aren’t gonna like him. And I’ve been contemplating that. For a couple days because it’s a real point and I think something that is true, but I also want to mark a difference or talk this through with me.

Yeah, please. Did he talk about the twenty twenty election being stolen?

No.

Right? So the things that animated, Blake Masters, I assume he didn’t endorse the Unibailer, or talk about Donald Trump being the greatest president of our lifetime. Did he hit Ukraine at all? Did

mention. Only foreign policy mention was China.

China sure SAES. Yeah.

It was just and we’re making sure the CCP cannot buy any land in Florida and everybody cheer. This must be a big thing on newsbacks or something. I I wasn’t aware that that was even a controversy that the CCP is buying

land in

Florida. But Maybe it is. That might be my ignorance.

This is a key difference in a way that the Santos has carved out. Like, I often call him kind of a Trump under study. I do think Trump created him, but also think he has created a lane that is more swing voter friendly when he says we should not be teaching gender ideology to first graders, there are a lot of people who are like, yep. Yep. And I would say especially a lot of these older folks who have not enjoyed the way that Democrats utilize government.

They see no contradiction in now. The way that DeSantis talks about how he will wield government to push back against their sort of cultural enemies. They like that too. The point I wanna make is like he’s not the same. He does have his own pitch and not only that, a bunch of the other candidates.

They’re much closer to parodying and copying what Rhonda Santos’ Lane is than they are copying Trump’s Lane. And so when that happens, part of what it is is that you’ll get Nikki Haley and you’ll get Tim Scott. You’ll get a bunch of these

at the Nikki Haley said, don’t say gay, didn’t go far enough. It was like, I was bored as gay gay. We gotta put in fifth grade. He stopped at third grade. Fifth graders also shouldn’t be saying gay.

And guess what? That’s not gonna fly. And it’s the same reason, like, people think that Ron DeSantis is o g on this. He invented this woke culture fight. Now, of course, Donald Trump had his own version of this that tickled the same sort of places when he talked about anti p c and he was, you know, going after immigrants But Ron DeSantis has a, like, stepped up version of this that is more palatable to your average suburbanite with a college degree.

They’re still on the right. And so even though I’ve had a number of swing voting groups say they would vote for Biden over Ron DeSantis, Like, I take that point, but I also think, like, Ron DeSantis is in a lot of ways, not gonna run against Joe Biden. I think he’s gonna be running against Kamala Harris. So I just wanna lay out that difference. Because I think it’s gonna be key in understanding the fact that Trump and the sanders are not quite the same, that wrong the sanders does have his own pitch and his own lane, and that it is not the election denialism that people rejected in the midterms.

Yeah.

I don’t wanna go too far over my skis on this and say that I’m, like, super Ron DeSantis bullish and, like, really freaked out or whatever. But he’s savvy. Yeah. There were things that I wasn’t impressed with watching the speech. Like I said, it was Longwell gotta work it out.

Right? Like he like, he’s going up against a performer, and there were parts that really dragged. But the messaging, the fights that he chooses to pick, are pretty savvy — Mhmm. — on the don’t say gay bill. How he describes it?

These schools that are telling us that kids are being born racist, telling kids that they’re being born in the wrong body. We’re just trying to protect freedom from the left pathologies being forced down your throat. It plays. I get the dog whistle. Right?

But so that that makes me like cringe. That that plays, I think. Okay. The Disney thing, I think, is a little weird. And I think this could be one of his weaknesses.

He’s a little prickly. You can tell he’s, like, got his back up on his Disney thing and he’s digging in and, like, he said Disney is injecting sexuality. Into their programming for young kids. Mhmm. And it’s just like I don’t know if that plays, actually.

I mean, I think that everybody has taken their kids to see strange world know, I think that the types of people that thought that strange world was inappropriate because the kid was gay with a supportive dad. Are not the swing voters that you’re gonna need in a general action in twenty twenty four. I just don’t think that the broad middle of the country is like, boy, Disney is getting too sexualized. I I just it seems a little weird. Right?

And to to bring it up multiple times, to me, that rang a little weird. But That said, I think that most of these other culture fights, you know, he he has the old dog whistle strategy down. And the woke is vague enough. That’s another thing we’re the the people on the street. It’s like, what is woke to you and nobody really can say?

Right? It’s like everyone divides it themselves, but that’s good for a politician. Right? Because people can paint it with their own brush. And He did have this one line.

Florida’s where what goes to die. It’s one of his taglines. It’s a little on the nose for me at the villages. I was like. I was like.

I don’t know. Maybe maybe what I edited it. Can

we talk about this this point about what woke is? I was talking to reporter the other day. And he asked me, do people bring up woke in the focus groups? And I was like, never. Like, I don’t hear people say, while I’m against things being woke.

However, they bring up all the subgenres. Right? The one that matters to them. So I don’t like all this gender stuff in schools or the critical race theory or the litter box that’s, you know, like, whatever, and socialism comes up a lot. But, like, people have their own idea, like, their own subgenre that, like, bugs them about the left or just generally the left forcing all their weird stuff on us.

And what’s great about Wolk is it’s sort of like what anti p c used to be. They’re they’re different strains. But like everybody can tag into it from their own position and that allows it to be broadly appealing. And I think this is where around the scientist has given himself a pretty good base to argue from because it can just be it can be boys playing, you know, girls sports. Right?

That kind of stuff. And people including swing voters, I would say for whatever reason, there is now a whole cottage industry of thinkers and writers who are respected, who often vote for Democrats, who would call themselves liberal, who’ve basically made their entire careers and personas around sort of the gender identity, trans kids. And so there are a lot of people who think of themselves as sort of independent or contrarian, that kind of thing who, like, are really tapped into this gender issue or the trans issue. And that works. Like, that can be woke or can be race, it could be whatever.

And that that’s where he has a a good a good plan, and a lot of people are copying it.

Yeah. So one last thing on this observation or a negative and a positive is sort of just we judge Ron DeSantis’ strengths and weaknesses going forward. I think the best argument for the Gibbs side of this, which is that this doesn’t wear well and then the end, is that maybe he doesn’t have the one off weird quotes like Blake Masters or the Doug Mastriano going full election fraud that put together as a package. Right? And you present it to your Phoenix, you know, your Maricopa County suburb voter, the voted for Katy Hobbs.

You presented them. It’s like, this guy is running and he’s he’s going after colleges and saying that they are too liberal and that we’re trying to bring old school, classical, conservative, like reading back to colleges. He’s getting rid of AP Bulwark history stuff. He’s obsessed about whether Disney princesses are showing too much cleavage. Right?

Like, he doesn’t he’s going after trans kids. He’s going after gay. Right? Like, that’s the inverse of this. Right?

Like, that people that have conservative predictions can hear the woke thing and project their own, the one thing they’re mad about on it. The the people on the other side of the coin hear everything and be like, this dude’s a weirdo. Right? Like, he’s, like, he’s talking about all of this stuff. And he’s and they’re like, maybe I don’t really love it.

I don’t love the DEI or I don’t love this one teacher my kid has that is going a little bit too hard on the on the woke stuff, but, like, I mean, this dude feels like he’s obsessed. Right? Like, do I want that in the president and that feels like a little a little too far? And then so I think that’s a potential vulnerability for him. When

this comes down to sort of an ineffable thing, like a thing that people might not be able to put their fingers on, but here’s my question about Ron DeSantis as you are watching him. Does he seem happy as he’s delivering this? Like does he seem light? Does he seem like a guy who is carrying a positive message that can turn people on in a way because at some point, if you just are dealing in anger, you can. And Trump Trump dealt in anger.

He dealt in division, but he also, like, made people laugh all the time. Right? So much of it. And this is where people got this thing that that people could say, but literally not seriously. And we we that was a way for us to all understand that Trump had a way of saying things where people like, he doesn’t quite mean that guys, but he’s just saying it and it’s funny and that allowed him to get away with murder, with people in a way that I have wondered because we have not seen Ron DeSantis on the national stage whether he carries himself with any kind of lightness that people can feel good about him.

I know he seemed anal retentive was the word that came to me. Like prickly and anal retentive. There was one thing I thought at the very end, I made a mark in my notes. I was like, there’s a little something here, which is on the fighting side. Is at the very end, he said, you know, kind of I’m just one guy in this and the thing that, you know, I I just want you guys to know that we’re all in this fight together.

These people wanna silence Right? And if you’re the mom at the school board who’s mad about what’s being taught to your second grader, you’re in this with Right? And he did that kind of galvanizing thing at the end, which I thought was, like, pretty good at least. Mhmm. You know, because he does come off his activity.

Right? I said it’s the one good part of the Trump, like Nickname. This you know, it’s like he does come off. He’s like, oh, I’m a know it all. I’m like, very anal.

You know, I’m very particular. I’m prickly. So maybe he can grow it over time. But, no, there was not a lot of joy to eat unless you get joy out of liberal tears. And that might be enough in a Republican primary in sub places.

Alright. We had an election yesterday. It’s a politics podcast in Chicago. There was the first round of a mayor’s race, and I pulled this up the sitting mayor, Lori Lightfoot, finished in third place, not enough to make the runoff. Paul Validus was head of Department of Education.

Branded Johnson, a Citi Council member. They advanced the April four runoff. Sarah, we’re on a little bit of a trend here without, you know, purporting ourselves as Chicago politics experts. We do have a little bit of a trend here in these big cities. Now.

And and I think that sometimes there’s always this. And I love the local politics reporters. They’re always like, oh, you national type, you wanna weigh in on this. And this is mostly about Chicago issues and local are local issues, but Eric Adams in New York goes in and and replaces de Blasio running as more of the pro police kind of candidate on the democratic side. San Francisco, as I’ve written about, we had these recalls, particularly the of the DA.

You know, LA, Cairn Bassons of winning, but but very close, right, to having, like, this former Republican dude, winning the LA mayor’s race, and now in Chicago, Laurie Life, it doesn’t doesn’t win the runoff. Can we learn anything, you think? Can we do big picture, apologizing?

Oh, yeah. I think this is crime. Right? So we’ve seen since the pandemic, the rise in crime in a lot of these major cities. And I think for people who live in places without a lot of crime, you may wanna roll your eyes at this and say, you know, define the police or whatever, let me tell you what, the people in these cities do not wanna defund the police.

They want somebody to do something about the fact that there is a ton of burglary and to be fair to these local reporters. I did just tap in on this, you know, like, on the Lauren Lifefoot thing. But, you know, it sounded like in a lot of ways she was trying to say, no, no, no, violent crime is down, and it it’s true that, like, year over year, from the pandemic, there had been a decrease in the murder rate, but things like theft, car jacking. Right? And all that stuff was up.

And if you live in these places, that is the ball game. Right? Like the most fundamental thing is being able to walk down the street and be safe. Washington DC feels super different than it did five years ago. Really different.

And that is gonna matter to people and they’re gonna want something done about crime. I feel this way. I feel this way in DC. The big tent in campments, where there’s a ton of drug use, a lot of violence, you know, it creates a really different sense downtown. When you see all the stores.

Right? Like, people could be like, we’re bouncing back, but, like, when you go to a downtown and you see all the for sale, all the retail space, things don’t feel full, the coffee shops are all closed, you know, just it has a really different feel and it gives people the sense of decline. Right? And so that’s when you get change election. Now, the one thing in this election in Chicago in particular, so it’s clear they don’t want her.

She had somebody running to her left, and then there’s like a Republican that won. And so I guess my question is is, is it possible Chicago elects a Republican mayor in this environment. And I’m not positive. That’s the case.

Yeah. See, Brandon Johnson is the one that you were talking about that was running to I guess, her left. And valves is not he’s not a Republican. The guy that won the most. He’s a Democrat, but I I think

Oh, he is? Yeah.

Yeah. I kept

saying people refer to him as a conservative. Need a conservative Democrat. Yeah.

This is the very online labs, you know, trying to smear him. No. He ran for governor as a Democrat. You ran for a tenant governor as a democrat. So, no, very very much a democrat.

But look, I I I do think that the messaging about about unions coming from him is maybe, you know, why you sort of see this? Like, oh, if you’re if you wanna criticize the teachers union or whatever, then you’re a Republican And so no. He he ran as a Democrat back in two thousand two. So it’s been twenty years, at least he’s been a Democrat. And I don’t I wanna pretend that that I know Paul valves his whole CV But look, I I think that sometimes it’s hard to tell, like, in this in this surround sound information environment, Like, what is real?

Like, what is just in my feeds? Right? Like, you know, what is being blown on proportion? And I think that that breeds an idea a lot of times of people who are in one their tribal bubble of being like, no, this is bullshit. Right?

Like, crime isn’t really that bad. And the school situation is really that bad. This is just Republican nonsense. And Tucker Carlson and Omega Kelly are talking about it today, and they’ve got to be

wrong.

Right? There’s a little bit of this on the, you know, the Lab League thing, which you’re dealing with this week. Right? Right? If the Daddy’s just say one thing, then they must be wrong.

That the people that are actually living through this stuff in oddities, like, we can do we just now see through the elections that that’s not how they feel. Now, some of those folks might go even further left, we did this in Oakland, right, where people were unhappy. And it looked like that they were we were gonna elect, you know, the more center left you know, kind of reform oriented candidates. And then it turned out they’re very close races. It turned out like the even more lefty person won.

You know, we’ll see how that shakes out in Oakland, both in the mayor’s race and in the DA’s race. So that could very well happen in the runoff where Johnson wins. But I I think that that what is clear is that, like, people are not happy with the status quo. Right? And I think that they have these internal divisions within them, which is, like, they are still mad for good reason about police shootings.

Right? Mhmm. And so they don’t wanna be for, like, the blue lives matter candidate. Right? But, like, the same time, they want their cities to be safe.

Right? And at the same time, they don’t want to be for gutting all the public schools. Right? But they also didn’t love a lot of what teacher’s unions were doing during COVID, right, with kids in schools. Right?

So people on the left, this is mostly an intro left dispute of people who have these cross tensions trying to deal with that. And I think that was kind of what I tried to get on that interview with book Jenkins. I did a a few weeks back where she’s trying to be, like, no. I am, like, I’m progressive. Like, I’m liberal, but, like, that doesn’t mean anarchy, you know, like, that that people don’t get arrested for shoplifting.

Right? Like, there has to be some kind of punishment for shoplifting. Maybe you think the prison industrial complex too much. We need to come up with an alternate solution for sure. I’m open to that.

But, like, it has to be something. Right? You can’t just let people keep stealing from Target over and over again, you know, because that’s not a society. Right? Right.

And so I I just think that in these big cities, folks are dealing with that. And Republicans are taking advantage of it. This I just talked about this yesterday. We ran to, I guess, last week, was it on the next level on Charlie’s podcast about how, you know, there’s plenty of crime problems in red states too that it just isn’t as acute, doesn’t feel as acute as in cities. Well, there’s

cities in red states. What

I’m trying to say is, like, Tennessee has a crime problem. What’s a good transition into Tennessee? Tennessee is a crime problem, but it’s not just in Memphis. Right? Like, the red parts of Tennessee have crime problems.

Right? And this is what I was ranting about with Amanda last week about how, like, Florida is where Parkland and Pulse and this just horrible shooting of those journalists just happened like,

you know,

Florida has a higher murder rate than New York City. So there’s plenty of gun violence. Problems. The top murder rate places are all red states because of gun violence problems, suicides and gun violence said that’s something Democrats seem to be able to go in offense, so that you gotta clean your own house. Before you can go on offense.

Right? And then I think for some people, they’re like, okay, it’s hard to get that around your brain. Right? Which is like the murder rate is higher, but it’s weird because when I see pictures of the city’s, like, offices are boarded up and stuff. Right?

Because they’re all these ancillary crimes that you’re talking about in DC, but DC feeling different. Right? Like, that’s a little more acute than a whatever, a murder rate number.

Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Let’s

go back to Tennessee unless you had a won’t

Yeah. I think you wanted to say, Wayne, in Tennessee. So I think let’s go there. This governor

of Tennessee, Bill Lee, for people who haven’t heard the story, he is about to sign a bill I wrote about this. There’s gonna be bills in many states that are banning drag performances outside of sex clubs outside of strip clubs essentially or adult entertainment venues. How this gets released will be interesting to say the least you know, the bills all say that it has to be performances that appeal to the prurient interest. I don’t know who somebody in some think tank in Washington DC probably came up with the word Purient because it’s in all of these bills, and they sent it out to Alec who had sent it out to all of these state legislatures. And so it’ll be interesting to see how Prudence is enforced, but Bill Lee is doing a press conference yesterday.

And somebody at the Tennessee Holler, which is a great local outlet there, went out doing with the picture of him from the nineteen seventy seven year book. And it was Bill Lee dressed as a cheerleader for some gimmick on the high school field. You know, it’s like the boys dressed as cheerleaders.

It’s like the powder cloth. Yeah.

It’s powder puff game. Yeah. And it was called his was there’s some sexist thing that was it was nineteen seventy seven. So some lightly misogynistic description that was underneath picture. And he was asked about this.

And he got really butt hurt. We’ll

put

it in the show now so people can watch it if you haven’t seen it. And he gets really angry and puffed up and he’s like, How can you say that’s the same? How can you say that’s, like, sexualizing these young children and these sexualized performances in front of five year olds and I am gonna sign the bill and that there’s no similarity there and it kind of storms off out of this press conference. It gets very heated. And, you know, this is like the classic Republican thing just gets my blood boiling of, you know, it’s only a problem when they do it.

Right. Right. Like, if I if I dressed up as a girl, you know, for a powder puff game as a straight man who obviously I’m not interested in, you know, butt stuff. K? Not me.

You know, that’s not crew rent. Right? That’s just funny. That’s just good night your fun. It’s just a guy, you know, making fun of faggots by putting on a skirt Nothing.

No problems there. Nothing to see here. Government doesn’t need to get involved in that. But when the gays start dressing up, you know, in skirts, and shaking their little tail feathers around. That’s sexualized.

Like, that is really problematic. And we need we need Johnny law to interfere with that. And so, you know, this is just a classic, you know, kind of thing. It’s only a problem when they do it. Right.

But did he get to watch all billy? Get his bluster?

I did not watch it. I have like sort of a different I have a different level of annoyance on this. Although, to your point about how they enforce it, I have two thoughts number one, drag shows or even like or less was kind of a thing when we were in the club, certainly on the lesbian side a little bit. It was like, never for me the kind of thing where I was like, I’m going to go out. Because I want to consume this content, but it was like, it was out.

It was just like, what was happening at the bar that night? I also didn’t see any five year olds in there when I was there.

You never went to a drag brunch?

I did. No. Perry’s has the drag brunch, and you’re not gonna I liked the Perry’s and had sushi sushi rolls as part of the brunch. Yes. I thought the food was good.

You had sushi at a drag brunch in the morning? You’re all

good. Good. Their brunch was excellent.

Cream cheese, like a Philadelphia roll?

No. Listen. I’m not whatever. I’m not gonna make sure I’m

just having her off there.

That’s good. It was like eleven thirty in the morning, you know. It was like almost lunchtime. And I didn’t love these. I did not also see five girls here, but I did see a lot of people would bring their, like, parents to this, and there would always be, like, a dad in his golf shirt and Slacks who got talked in the brunch and, like, the drag queens would grind on them.

And I was always like, I hate this for him. But usually, the dads would somebody had told them what they were getting into for the most part, and they would blush and they would endure and it was sort of like good family fun for all. Although drag queens could be really mean, I gotta say, especially if you’re doing drag bingo. They’re like insult comics the whole time. But I’m not super, super deep in drag world.

However, what I will say is that I’m super deep in free speech world and expression. And like I am quite certain that our free speech and expression laws in this country in the first amendment allows drag shows to exist. Mhmm. And I think it is interesting. And this is something around Ron DeSantis is really it’s been sort of perfecting.

It’s how to Take a crowd who says that free speech is one of the things they absolutely care the most about. It is one of their most essential values and these lids They are trying to censor speech. They don’t believe in free speech. We are the party of free speech, but also your drag shows are illegal and the cops are gonna bust them up. And this is a a thing where the collapse of sort of conservative institutions can be seen in the fact that there is nobody sort of policing the contradictions anymore.

I mean, when I was when I was younger, I sort of felt like Republicans and conservatives were much better at having a neutral principle that they would apply even if it meant, you know, something that they didn’t necessarily like. But they would sort of defend, like, Libertarians when they talk about principled Libertarianism. This is sort of what they mean. And, like, I don’t see that many conservatives right now being, like, hey, you know what Ron DeSantis is? He’s incredibly ill liberal.

Banning books I see they’re left making those arguments. They’re left to a who is supposed to hate free speech. They’re making those arguments. But the right is not policing Ron DeSantis on this. They’re not going after these, like, bands on expression that Drag Queen’s certainly fall Ron DeSantis so that’s been somewhat mystifying to me.

There’s no parallel free speech threat. This is the thing that’s so bad thing about all this. I mean, there’s a parallel in the sense of, like, Longwell, there’s people getting canceled or stuff, but that’s all informal. Right? There’s no parallel Gavin Newsom is not signing any bills that’s like, if you were a teacher and, you know, you misgender someone, then you’re gonna be fired or whatever.

I’m trying to think, like, what the liberal equivalent of Like, we’re gonna ban, you know, discussions of whatever Christian morals in our classrooms. Like that, like, you might say that the cultural left has more control over this. But as far as government bands, like, this is the most direct ban on freedom of expression that is happening anywhere right now. It’s happening across the country in red states banning drag drag shows, and I think it’s gonna lead to banning prides. I don’t — Oh.

— I don’t know. So I was gonna ask about fried. Like Yeah. So I went back and forth with their starbucks staff and, you know, credit to them for for applying. You could just ignore me.

With my TDS. Right? But they engaged with me. And we’ve been back and forth a few times, and this is why I’m dug in on Puriant because finally, That was the sticking point. I was just like, how is pride gonna happen in Arkansas?

You’re gonna ban pride, and they’re Longwell, no, we’re just banning brilliant performances. And I’m like, have you ever been to a pride?

Yeah.

Have you ever been to a gay pride? There’s some period shit happening at pride. Okay? And who’s gonna be the judge? Is just some random cop in Fayetteville?

Gonna decide what every drag performance whether it whether it teeters the edge over the Purion or not Purion, it’s concerning. The

drag folks are not I mean, it’s mostly like it’s like the naked cowboys and their assless chats too and the dance on the Sure. But that’s not drag. So I went That’s

not drag.

So how are we policing this?

Maybe he’s in Asylus chaps, but he’s got, you know, ferry wings on, and that counts as well. I don’t know. I I I just but should people have to be thinking about this? And this there’s this book that was by George Lakeoff called Who’s Freedom. He was really early on this.

I had somebody send it to me a while ago. As he wrote this in the nineties about how, like, the Republicans were degrading the concept of freedom. And back then, I was kind of, you know, like, libertarian, Tim was, like, I don’t know. That’s right. It seems like Berkeley nonsense.

He tapped into something early, right, which is just this. We’re gonna use freedom to just talk about our people’s freedoms. Right? Like — Mhmm. — and not really concern ourselves with other conceptions of freedom.

Right? And and the way wrote this was about, oh, people’s freedom to, you know, for people’s freedom to get a good education, you know, minorities freedom to not be discriminated against know, so so he’s doing a little bit of, you know, some wordplay there. But this is the most direct example of what Lake Up was writing about. I just had this last night. At the speech I was at kept talking about your freedom, you parents, your freedom to have your kids learn without being indoctrinated by the teachers.

But I kept sitting there Longwell, wait a minute. What about my freedom? Yeah.

What

about liberal parents’ freedom? What about my freedom as a gay dad? What if I want the teacher to teach in Tango Makes three? Like, whose freedom are we talking about here? And they have really debates that in a way that I think, you know, works very well this primary setting, but but is gonna come to a head eventually.

We could go round and round on this. We’re running out of time. Do you have any final thoughts on George Lakeoff who’s freedom before I discuss your hair?

I don’t on George Lakeoff, command Are we out? Has this has been a good show Longwell show already? I I just I did. I forgot it. I wanted to talk about Fox News, but I

wanna talk about the Wuhan lab. Is why we have so much Jonathan Last the Bulwark. There’s Thursday night Bulwark. I do Charlie Sykes on Fridays often, not this week because the principal’s first. Festival is happening this week, but I’ll be back on shortly showed next week.

There might be more next level episodes coming. TBD, if you wouldn’t get

excited

about it. I hope you liked this episode. If you didn’t, maybe, you know, whatever. We’ll catch you next week when JBL’s back. If you’re if you’re a JBL stand.

Final

thought though, Sarah, you forgot this was a video podcast and you came on just out of the shower. Just out of the shower. You kind of recovered it though. It turned out the hair is looking pretty good, I guess. All things considered.

It was

a great moment. Where because it was just the two of us, and some had got Secret Podcast my head. And I was, like, don’t worry, we’re not on video. I can shower right before this. And I came down and jumped on the video, and Tim was, like, what’s wrong with you?

And I was like, what are you talking about? He’s like, you he’s like, you need a hat. And so I had to go up and I got several hats. But I realized that if I just comb my hair, it would be it it’s not it’s not my best ever, but I I think we would all agree that this is just I’m fine. Was a good

recovery. I think you look great. I think you look great. I’m so happy when we did this. And guys, subscribe, comment, Rate us.

I read those ratings. Me too. I see what you say. I see what you say. We’re monitoring you.

I appreciate all of your support. JBL, if you’re listening, get better. Hang in there, buddy. I hope you enjoyed the Wawa.

We miss you. We love you. We love

you. Peace out.

Yeah.